Measles-anyone have any experience of it?

[hellymelly]

My daughters are not vaccinated and there is a measles outbreak here.We have agonised over vaccination and so far we have opted out but measles does frighten me,and reactions vary,my GP is naturally very pro vaccination,the homoeopath I spoke to feels differently,I have been to several lectures about vaccination and I still can't decide.DH is thinking maybe we should give the girls the single vaccine.Does anyone have any experience of measles?How bad can it get? I had it as a child,everyone did,but I don't really remember what it was like.

I'd hesiate to refer you to Brian Deer's Freedom of Information Request but if you put one in, it outlines who the MMR spendaholics were. Dr W is the second name from the top. He got close to half a million of taxpayers money.

ROFL at Brian Deer.
That bastion of truth and integrity....

I'm not following this at all. I do not know of single reputable researcher into autism or indeed anything who credits Dr W's theory with any truth or reality, Indeed he himself has never explained his response to being told his research was wrong. But it seems that being the good doctor means you have never have to say sorry or explain. I would love to know the explanation for his actions but like so much in the saga, it may remain forever a mystery. There is no need to involve BD - You can make your own FOI request to get the same information about how taxpayers' money was wasted. It's not a secret ( any more). I would have preferred it if the families could have got some financial suport for their autistic children but I'll have resign myself to funding the MMR ranch in Texas instead.

is the single vaccine safe even if your child has allergies and depressed immune system?

Are you suggesting that Wakefield personally got half a million of taxpayers money, or a research grant got half a million of tax payers money. The research into MMR being funded by Autism Speaks at the moment is costing millions (not of taxpayers money obviously).

And this is what Richard Horton said about Brian Deer at the GMC hearing. Again I remind you that Horton and Deer are supposedly on the same 'side'.

"The point at which my ignorant dislike of Horton unravelled was when he described, how, on addressing Deer?s complaints against Wakefield, presented at the Lancet, he immediate said, ?this has to be investigated?, and began to plan evidence gathering trips to the Royal Free to question Wakefield and his colleagues. According to Horton, Deer collapsed in the face of proper investigation and pleaded with him not to pursue this approach. Not long after this, Horton told the hearing, ?I fell out with Mr Deer?.

According to Horton, his enquiry into Deer?s allegations left him sure that at least one of the most serious was completely fictitious. From that point onwards, in real life and in the hearing, Horton gave impeccable evidence for the defence. In fact he rose to a level of praise for Dr Wakefield the like of which I have only previously heard from parents."

kalo - I don't think any live viral vaccine can be guaranteed safe if your child has a depressed immune system, but obviously they would be more at risk from the disease itself as well. One for the doctors (I'd go to Halvorsen personally to answer a question like that, or a proper consultant immunologist).

cyber- I attended IMFAR this year- 1000 autism researchers. There were plenty there who discussed the potential role of vaccinations as a trigger for autism in some cases. Wakefield's current research was presented as well (so must have got through a panel). I attended expecting to leave cross, and actually left happy with the number of researchers who are quite happy to discuss the possible role of vaccinations.

And now parent funded bodies such as Autism Speaks are large enough to fund expensive projects, the research is even being done.

Lots about the money/funding issues here all said under oath.

I say this every time this subject comes up.

The media manipulation, misrepresentation and sometimes outright lying surrounding pretty much everything to do with Dr Wakefield and his work is revolting and scandalous.

But the fact is, it works.

People really do swallow the most ridiculous crap hook, line and sinker. People are prepared to make damning and hugely ignorant comments cos they read something in a newspaper or saw something on the telly.

God but it is so disheartening to see how easy it is to carry out a witch hunt, and how people are more than happy to repeat nonsense without ever taking the time to look into things for themselves.

IMO the Orwellian treatment of Drs Wakefield, Murch and Walker Smith should be ringing huge alarm bells to the thinking public. (Folks you are aware BTW that Dr Wakefield is not the only highly qualified and respected gastroenterologist being hauled before the GMC?)

Jimjams has repeated this link before but please if you are interested in a bit of reality as opposed to arse covering by the state, check out what is really going on at the GMC on the cryshame website. Pay particular attention the the current correspondance concerning the conflict of interest of the person chosen to chair the hearing. He is a shareholder in one of the companies which manufactures the vaccine in question FFS!!

www.cryshame.co.uk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=135

'Andrew Wakefield said: "The costs judge has revised the sum payable, by nearly £100,000 and I am happy to abide by this ruling." This suggests that his original bill, for generic work, may have been more than half a million pounds.'

The generic work means that there may have been futher payments for work done for individual families. Dr W. attempted to justify the money by saying he worked weekends and sacrificed time with his family. Is there nothing this saint will not do?

Autism Speaks is a (contraversial) charity and can choose its own priorites. If looking for vaccination needles in haystacks appeals , why not ? As you say it's not our money.

"The point at which my ignorant dislike of Horton unravelled..
Who had an ignorant dislike and how did it unravel? It's an intriguing writing style .

Cyberseraphim said;

"I do not know of single reputable researcher into autism or indeed anything who credits Dr W's theory with any truth or reality..."

You may not know of them but that only shows that you are ignorant of them, not that they do not exist.

I know of loads. Jimjams has already given you the example of Lancet editor Horton. If you ignore information that is your prerogative but what is the point of saying it does not exist when it has just been given to you (repeatedly)?

Sorry I have not read this whole thread.
My cousin and I both had measles as children in 1971 aged 3 . I lived and he died .
His poor mother to this day cannot talk about it.
Subsequently I had no hesitation in my DD having her MMR.

Well I have suggested that you read the hearing diaries.

The transcripts have not been made available so it's the only source of information to the proceedings of the hearings.

Autism Speaks is now a huge autism funder. It funds projects in major universities (such as Harvard, UCLA). It's controversial amongst militant Aspies but not scientists looking for research funding.

Oh autism is ridiculously political. A militant Aspie is someone with Aspergers (so very high functioning) who sees attempts to treat autism as a threat to their existence.

The best person to read on the politics really is Donna Williams. She has autism herself and points out that people with Aspergers generally don't know what it's like to experience the world without language (or to have a different language) etc. She's come in for quite a bit of abuse/stick herself.

The NAS now very much represents this view which is why on the information about autism page you'll find nonsense such as the suggestion that those with autism who remain non verbal prefer to communicate via signs or symbols (rather than the reality with is in 99.9% of cases the individual has massive language problems or apraxia). There was a good article about it published in the States recently.

Donna Williams stuff here
here's the US article

They've got the name because they're often quite vocal and can be very disruptive at conferences etc (I have to say wherever I've seen the disruption the organisers have been very patient and have allowed the person to have their say).

Pity the cryshame website is the only source, it's not exactly unbiased is it?

''IMO the Orwellian treatment of Drs Wakefield, Murch and Walker Smith should be ringing huge alarm bells to the thinking public. (Folks you are aware BTW that Dr Wakefield is not the only highly qualified and respected gastroenterologist being hauled before the GMC?)''

The charges are very serious - One of the many charges is that invasive surgical procedures were
carried out at the Royal Free Hospital without clinical necessity or ethical approval ( this is to be decided by the GMC not me or Brian Deer). Simon Murch authorised a procedure to be carried out on an autistic boy (then hopelessly botched by a junior doctor) which left him almost dead, and so severely injured that he now needs 24 hour care. If that does not need to be investigated by the GMC - what does?

The family of the boy were awarded £500,00 (inclusive of weekend care? ) compensation , not by Brian Deer, or even by adult autistics, but by a court in England.

Well the doctors are at the GMC without a single patient complaint. The supposed 'victims' have not been allowed to be called (for the defence).

If you read the hearing diaries (like I said it's the only source out there at the moment, biased or not short of sitting in there yourself it's all there is) you'll find that ethical approval was obtained in a standard way and that there was a clinical need (it's now almost impossible to get treatment for severe gut problem without going to the US).

The GMC are to decide whether there was proper approval and whether there was clinical necessity. I might believe there was not, whilst the three doctors' supporters still contend that there was. The GMC have not ruled on this issue yet. I was referring only to the charges not the (unknown) ruling. The injured boy's parents' lawyers argued in court that no lawful consent had been given for the procedure and that it was an 'assault' (although the case was decided on other grounds). The Royal Free has now changed the wording on their consent forms to help parents understand the risks of surgery. For all I know, The GMC might accept Simon Murch's interpretation of events but there is certainly enough material to warrant an investigation whereas someone suggested that it was unnacceptable even to ask questions when worrying events happen in an NHS hospital.

well this considers most of Deers claims (upon which the hearings seem to be based).

But this is rather pointless. You seem to think that people can only ever be born with autism. This is not the direction research is going in. Whatever the role of MMR, the role of viruses, gut disease, environmental toxins, other vaccinations is currently being investigated at good world class universities (mainly in the States). So whatever the GMC find it probably doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme. If they find against Wakefield it's not going to suddenly mean that we move back to thinking autism is one thing with one (100% genetic) cause. Research has moved on from that.

Govt's own inquiry into MMR safety, Cochrane report, was heralded by the media as comclusive proof that MMR was safe. Except that it seemed they didn't bother to read it. It actually concluded that safety research was woefully inadequate. The majority of children have it with no problems whatsoever. But to keep denying that a small subset of children can be significantly damaged is well, very worrying.

This is the press release from Dr Wakefield concerning the case of poor Jack Piper;

"Press Release
Dr. Wakefield's response to The Mail on Sunday

I was saddened by the story of Jack Piper in today's Mail on Sunday, a national UK newspaper. Although I personally never had any dealings with Jack, nor any responsibility for or role in his care, I am aware of the fact that he suffered both a perforation during colonoscopy and a difficult post-operative recovery. Jack's care was negligent and this fact was admitted by the Royal Free Hospital. Extraordinarily, the consultant paediatric gastroenterologist responsible for performing the colonoscopy (not Dr. Simon Murch) left the procedure in the hands of an inexperienced junior doctor while he went off to perform a similar procedure in a private hospital. Strangely, this fact finds no mention in the article. While perforation is a rare but recognised complication of colonoscopy, in this instance its occurrence was inexcusable, negligent, and the basis for Jack's settlement.

Sadly and inaccurately, Jack's story portrays him as a victim of 'MMR experimentation' and a picture of me accompanies the story. I am informed that Jack was assessed by Dr. Murch at his parent's request, on the basis of his unexplained bowel symptoms. Dr. Murch clearly considered a colonoscopy to be clinically indicated. I had no role in any of these decisions, but have no reason to doubt Dr. Murch's expert judgment.

The case was settled on the basis of clinical negligence. The issues of experimentation and lack of informed consent were not tested in court, nor should they have been since they have no merit. But what a perfect opportunity to weave another lie into the gossamer of this tragic tale.

Andrew Wakefield"

Emphasis mine.

These issues are complex and we are all relying on scant second hand information. But in the interest of truth I think we need to be very careful about what we present as facts.

Anybody who doesn't think that there is a lot of media spin going on in just about anything related to MMR/measles/autism is very naive. We shouldn't believe everything we read in the papers.

Regarding the Cryshame website. I agree that it is a pity that they are the only ones who seem to be bothering to follow the trial and inform the parents and public of what is happening. I also find this odd if not suspicious. Why is Brian Deer so reticent to report things from to public I wonder?

Jack Piper is the child Cyberseraphim is refering to BTW.

Just to explain my above post.