to think that some items/services are luxurious and you should not claim poverty whilst simultaneously watching sky and tapping around on the old broadband.

[QueenHerod]

I am getting peeved with hearing how awful their lives are now they have to cut back to eating smart price carrots in a tin etc meanwhile they are subscribed to things that I would not consider a necessity.

Like sky tv and broadband etc.

AIBU?

Mine is a double whammy. I need computer/internet to get the special food supplies my DSs needs.
As it goes I can afford it but any other mums in my position NEED their computers to get their children special foods.

YABU

And its not just food- lots of stuff for sn is on te net: support groups etc, you just won't find out about them otherwise. PECs type things as well.

Access to the net as enabled ds3 to develop a skill: IT, that and maths (and his gorgeous sunny nature) are abut all he has goig for him long term. But he's starting to type where he can't write or talk much which opens a uge world of e-mail, even possible employment. Fab!

Its not so much about what you can have, its about what you can afford to reject.
Among poorer families having sky is a big deal because they buy into the myth that families did a few decades ago about owning a television thinking that it includes them into an informed position on a par with their peers. Its all very well saying things like "well I think everything on sky is rubbish anyway" but that is because you can afford the luxury of rejecting it, and have other means of social inclusion such as buying books or dvds.

Like second hand clothes- some people (sometimes very hard up people) reject them because they like to think they are in a "bracket" that doesnt need them or are in that lucky position of not needing them.

When you get Sky and most broadband you have to get at least a 12mth contract with them so most providers won't let you cancel without paying the rest of the time left on the contract

'have other means of social inclusion such as buying books '

really? my parents go to a library! they see buying books as oppoed to borrowin them as very well off (un;ess at charity shop anyway)

Obv. no good if you live miles away from one (though our ditrict has rural pockes and does a post scheme now)- but theres ways around lots of things

Too true Peachy.
Actually thinking about it almost every single piece of information that I have been given that has actively helped DS2 has come through the internet. Certainly diet, PECs, nutritional supplements,sensory therapy etc etc all came from the internet. And internet support helped me adjust after diagnosis.

Absoloute lifeline.
Plus DS2 taught himself to read as well as he does using the computer.

we have a mobile library around here.

the main library will loan you the book and send it with the mobile library chap.

i think this is a generational thing, i really do.

our next door neighbours have been here for 26 years, long before the net.

although the lady is from Inverness, the fella's from London, where they met and was a pilot for his entire career. you can't get more cosmopolitan a place than London life.

yet here they have PAYG internet access and seem pretty happy.

Luxury. What is luxury? Never mind paying for sky - A TV is a luxury isn't it? You don't need one at all, do you? Save the licence fee. A washing machine - you can handwash clothes. More than one coat or pair of shoes?

The point I am making is that what we think of as luxuries is changing, many things that used to be, are seen now as essentials. A phone, a tv, the internet - these are not seen as things you can do without. Many years ago, a fridge freezer was a HUGE deal! Let's all do without them now. Microwave, not essential.

Practically nothing in our lives is essential in the real sense of the word but as a society we have got to the point where these are 'basic' items that everyone has and everyone expects to have.

People in poverty often have tv set, fridge freezer, microwave, washing machine..these are no longer 'luxury' items, they are essential - the basics. telephone, internet, sky....the expectations, what constitutes 'the basics', all that is constantly changing.

Nowadays, the basics is plain old sky, a luxury is HD, or sky plus or whatever.

Do you see what I am waffling on about?

Oh goodness, i'm lacking the basics then- dammit! - our tv was a wedding gift and about 12metres square due to the back box- to dh hd= huge debt!

There is a case thogh that life has evolved in a way which makes the old luxuries now basics: a car is a luxury- unless all the local shops closed so you need to go to an out of town place: freezers same role. We're lucky I guess to have a bus here but if I didnt have a fridge / freezer that'd cost me £20 in bus fares a week to keep food on the table in fares alone! No ta.
And of course that woulnt cver a car, but it would a beko combo freezer quite quickly.

And of course people (this is us) need cars for work because the bus system is so run down (not that even the best would want to run dh into England for his shifts lol, as nly one making that trip).

TV's aren't essential but if you haven't made a choice (one I keep threatening crap they put on) to do without then it could be quite isolating- half of all convo's in rl seem to relate to the tv. Esp. in kidsville.

Even phones- lots of places dont have pay phones now as they are not used.

i dont think poor people need electricity either or gas necessarily - we should really add this up

somone needs to add this up

what is the weekly benefit for say a lone parent of two kids?

say an avg telephone, mobile sky package costs £30 a month. ( and i just know including phonecalls and a mobile that is uder estimating it)

electricity £15 pw = 60 PM

first of all let me say - that if poor people wern't so stupid , they wouldn't have debts and bad credit - and therefore would be able to change their electricity supplier and have greater savings.

however they arn't so - its the leccy meter and £60 pm

if they used candles they could save £60

gas - i think is a necessity - most houses dont have a fire place anymore to burn old stuff.

so far we have save "the poor" £60 + 30 - £90 pm

tv licence is £140 per annum divide by 12 and its £12 per month

bringing our toal to

102 pounds per month.

a washing machine is £230

but should last 5 years is £3.80 ish a month.

so far we have saved the poor - lets round up 106 pounds.

the poor should learn to knit, thereby saving gas in the winter. one can pick up balls of wool from charity shops for the price of months washing machine

gordon brown is missing a trick

knit poor people knit. save the environment, save yourselves.

Perhaps you construed my message as a dig, or maybe I chose books as a poor example. It was not intended as such- my point was that people who have access to other ways of connecting to the wider world think that their method access is available to all, which it isn't.
If you have a phone and have always had one you may not necessisarly understand those peoples needs who rely on the post as their social communication method for example.

Not a dig at al- why would it be? i'm (no longer) poor

But I do think the means to get around the lack of these items- phone boxes, post ffices etc- are fast disappearing and we need to recognise lots of people don't have access to them these days.

Bt like the threads which say 'to cut your bills buy from a butcher'- when a good proportion of people just don't have them any more.

phew - glad you can see what i mean. You are so right- facilities are dissappearing. I was involved with a government body untill a few weeks ago that was overseeing the Royal Mails plans to close post offices accross the country, and try to ensure that there was an even spread where possible so that the people who most relied on the offices could gain access. was very disillusioned by the process because it coincided with the end of that organisation who have now merged with energy watch, and the consumer coucil. Those who are least likely to be able to represent themselves have even less chance to be represented by the watchdog bodies now.
Things like library services, public lavatories, and telephone boxes dissappearing may not seem massively important in the grand scheme of things to those who pay for their upkeep- untill the day comes when you need them. Its a massive shame that things that connect people are going in this way.

QueenHerod - I can understand you being annoyed - and I can also understand you wanting to help them no matter what - they are your family after all.

But are you really helping? Let them go a bit hungry a few times - or eat really cheap/awful meals (as it sounds like they can't cook nice meals cheaply if they want to buy those horrid carrots!) - and only then will they change. You helping them out so much will only allow them to keep being frivolous with their money. It's not as if they're going to starve! (I assume not, anyway!!!!)

Or you could make something really boring or something that they don't overly like, and tell them that's all you can afford on your income because you are feeding them so often - maybe that will get the point across, without leaving them hungry? If nothing else, that will stop them whinging so much to you.