to think it is rude to persistently refer to God/Allah/etc. as an "imaginary friend"

[AtheneNoctua]

even after asked not to by several posters who have stated they found it offensive.

Isn't the whole point of 'faith' that it is irrational - i.e beyond rational? I always thought that the enormous act of trust, and faith without proof, was the important part in living your life through faith?

Arguing that it is irrational to believe in god is different from arguing that it is irrational to decide to accept faith (i,e an 'irrational' belief) as a way of life.

Good posts nooka.

It's quite surreal to see Christianity being portrayed as a persecuted minority. Christianity has more blood on its hands than any other organisation the world has ever seen

laurie there are gps who do not refer women on for abortions so forcing them to try and find someone else to help them it happens and is documented

yes, it's disgraceful and bloody what some Christians have done in the name of 'god'.

However, Christians are being murdered all over the world for daring to meet now.

It's not much of an argument to say that because some Christians were bastards and killed people that we should allow the persecution of Christians like the rape of nuns in Africa who are simply practising their faith by service.

It is patronising because it assumes that your opinion is the only valid one. You state that belief or otherwise is between 'god' and a person, totally failing to accept that, for a very large percentage of the population 'god' is simply nonexistant.

To suggest that it is presumptious to question belief is to belittle the world view of what the statistics would have us believe is the vast majority of the population.

Why cannot I question belief? is my opinion not as valid as yours?

Lourie, I had a doctor refuse me an abortion based on his beliefs. It's perfectly legal and beyond belief, especially as I was forced to listen to a long lecture on evil and he also refused to refer me to another doctor who would (that part was illegal)

andiem, I'm sure that's true but the BMA require them to refer them on. Just because a few don't do it just means than it any profession there are a few rogues scumbags (I mean we only have to look at the AIBU board for examples of professional people doing bad things)

x-posted slug.

It shouldn't have happened, he was a bastard, sorry he was such a fucker to you

Slug I make the connection between faith and belief because the two are connected, I believe you cannot have faith without belief, yes, it is a leap which I have made, so I know it exists and is real for me, unlike the fairies which I have no belief in and therefore no faith in their being. If you are saying I am patronising you by believing then sadly I am guilty.

Laurie you sound like the type of christian I could get on with

On the abortion issue - this happened to a cousin of mine who needed an abortion. It was an upsetting enough time and a hard enough decision without some nurse trying to guilt-trip her into changing her mind on moral grounds.

This is a separate point from the one in the thread title though - to what extent should people's religious beliefs be allowed to influence their 'public' roles - nurses, doctors, teachers etc? I find it baffling and odd that individuals are allowed to create imbalance in the services offered by the NHS, for example, or the state school system because of personal beliefs which have nothing to do with the jobs they are employed to do. But doubtless there are Christians who can explain exactly why it's fine for a nurse to impose her religious views on a distressed patient, or a teacher to shape sex education around her Christian ethics in a state-funded school?

Um, no. That isn't the thread title

I didn't raise it though, it came up several posts ago and is an interesting tributary of the main discussion, no?

I want to be perfectly clear. It is illegal for a doctor to refuse you an abortion. He can exempt himself from taking part in any way and that includes referring you to the unit that does the abortions. He has to refer you to someone who will refer you, according to the bma.

If it were legal I agree, it would be beyond belief slug

My faith is rational in the philosophical sense, in that I am able to draw from the premise that I believe in God the conclusion that I should try to please him, and I act in accordance with it (or try to) - that is rationality. Whether or not there is any objective point in my doing so, because there is or isn't actually objectively a God in the sense I think there is, is not something we can know. Therefore it may or may not be valid.

Planes fly because someone who knows how to do so makes them fly. It doesn't matter whether I believe in the principles of aerodynamics - they work. They would continue to do so even if we all thought that the fairies under their wings were keeping them up, as long as we built them the way we do.

Oh, I get what you mean now. As you were...

And FWIW I agree that religious faith is of course irrational.

But I think many of our behaviours are shaped by irrational factors, whether we are aware of them or not. So I have some objections to the term 'rational' being used in opposition to 'religious'.

You cannot question belief slug because you are not God, only he know who believes and who doesnt There are many who go to church, call them selves Christian who have no personal relationship with God, wouldnt know Jesus if they fell over him and think the holy spirit is a drink.....thats why I say no one can know unless it the other half of the relationship, going to church does not make you a christian, just as going into macdonalds doesnt make you a hamburger.

But, alas, not all that uncommon Laurie. Doctors have a lot of power, especially over vulnerable women. Have you ever wondered why abortion is the only medical proceedure that requires the consent of two doctors? What doesd that say about how women's ability to make rational decisions is viewed by the establishment?

I am looking worriedly around for those crazy Christians who think it fine for a nurse to be shitty to a distressed patient and for that rogue teacher who preaches abstinence instead of condoms in inner city schools.

Frankly I don't know of anyone like that, like you I only hear of them in the meeja/daily mail

Thanks andiem, that's very nice

I watched a programme about gravity a while back, and the presenter said that the first trips to the moon were based on an incorrect understanding of gravity. But it didn't matter because it worked.

I don't think it is patronising, but I do think it is meaningless outside of a religious context. As this is a discussion where not everyone thinks God is a valid concept saying it's between the person and God is therefore a bit meaningless. Now you may well say that as someone who doesn't subscribe to the God is real idea I should not presume to judge someone's religious beliefs, and that would be fair enough.

I'll still make them of course, based on my intellectual reasoning, which is how I think life should be approached. My mother tells me that this should be no barrier to faith, but I find it is.

georgimama I find your latest post rather disturning. It sounds a little like "I don't need to know how or why things are, I just lean back and let God do the thinking". Which is what I find repugnant about organised religion (not just Christianity)

If somebody hadn't shown a little more intellectual maturity and worked out the principles of aerodynamic flight, there wouldn't be any planes for you to smile beatifically at, would there? Because, you know, there aren't really any fairies.

Laurie, come over to the States and you will find they are running for the Presidency...

Yes, and that is why I was on the committee of the NAC and why I currently work in a womens centre slug

I(obviously) agree that it doesn't need two doctors - thankfully it is in name only in the Brooks advisory service and noone actually meets two doctors.

Andiem I think you are going to struggle to back up your claim that all Christians think abortion should be illegal. I don't. I don't think the other Christians in this lion's den thread do either.

My personal feelings about abortion are not something I am prepared to share on this thread, because I have done so before, and been called "misogynist scum", but I don't think it should be illegal.