AIBU to think that once you have paid your childcare, its not really worth working.? Is it that you just don`t want to look after your own kid. prefering to stick them in daycare as soon as the shine wears off, it really bugs me!

[discusturd]

Some go from 7-6 and never see there parents, I know I will get slated but in the nursery I work some kids hardly know who their parents are.

tbb you post about nursery provision having experientially taught students.

you make many sweeping coments and cast aspersions on students you saw

didnt bother you enough to do anything about it though

so yes no wonder you get responses

you are using your experience of specific set's of students to generalise and demonise nursery provision and in particular you single out babies in daycare as a particularly bad idea

and you are misrepresenting Sue Gerharts book. The damage she desctribes in her book is from albanian orphanges, where infants were never picked up. or chronically neglectful and abusive parents. Love does matter, but active abuse matters more if what you are talking about is palpable psychological damage.

Ah - sorry Happyhoney. I thought you were making some distinctin between those who really are struggling and have to work and those who aren't but choose to work.

sorry.

because deciding upon childcare for your child is the hardest decision ever and doesn't deserve this level of criticism. It is a very emotional decision and one which you are ever made to feel guilty for. You question yourself daily - am I doing the right thing? However, it is a case of me having to work (although I do enjoy my job and it does fit around the school hols so I am lucky). My ds does benefit from childcare but I would like to spend more time with him. I think really the outcome of this discussion is that you do what is right for your family (and practically) and no one has the right to criticise you for that (particularly, other mothers who should be supportive).
Tittybangbang - if you don;t think childcare is right for the under 3s, don't put your children in childcare and let the rest of us make our own decisions about what is right for our children.

Yes Titty, I was discussing a point about older children, but the underlying point is that we all have varying views on how to do things within our families, and that there is no right or wrong.
I was prepared to put my 3 children in an afterschool club for the reasons outlined in my post. Had my ds been an only child, and not enthusiastic about it, I would have made alternative arrangements - CM or whatever. But he isnt - he has two siblings and the decision we made AS A FAMILY was to go with the majority vote and use the afterschool club.
Now, there are some parents who wouldnt be prepared to make the compromise we did. I know of some mothers who either don't work at all, or take low status, unskilled work for the sake of being able to pick their children up at 3.30 every day. That's their choice. It wouldnt be mine.
It works exactly the same way with younger children. Some parents are happy to use full time nursery care for babies. Some aren't. There is no right or wrong. No one can predict how their child is going to be affected by it anyway. There are so many variables - personality, genetics - which influence how a child will develop; it would be impossible to say whether any one individual child has benefited or not from being at nursery or being at home.
I totally agree with the point made my Isabellasmum - surely we raise our children to aspire to having interesting and fulfilling lives? I would feel I was raising my daughters very badly if I was encouraging them to achieve well at school, and aspire to interesting and worthwhile careers, simply to jack it all in because of some misguided belief that a woman's role is to service her children 24 hours a day.

My DC are back to nursery 4 days a week since I split from my H.

They are very happy there, and I'm sure have more fun/stimulation than they would at home. It also gives me time to get things done.

I work, but freelance, and as it is at the minute I prefer to work at night when they are in bed. i still put them in childcare though.

Thats my choice.

And after all that, what a shit thread. Bored were you op?

anyhoo i have to go and do some work now.

Also, being a good mother to your children isn't about whether you work or not. It's about your love for them, time that you give them, how you want the best for them. All good mothers want that for their children regardless of whether they work or not, don't they? I would measure a good mother that way, rather than looking at whether they work or not and then making criticisms. Usually these criticisms come from women stuck in the 50s who have to justify their stay at home existence with over-exaggerations of what good mothers they are in comparison to the witches to dare to go and earn a living and contribute to society. Looking back historically, women usually worked either outside the home or inside (which without today's gadgets was prob tough). Women have always done it. I notice that criticisms are usually directed at mothers rather than fathers - I wonder why that is?

Tittybangbang,

I think that my son being in after school club every night of the week is hard on him. Although he loves it he is very tired as he also goes to to school. He is lucky in that he starts school at 8.55 and is picked up from after school club. At the age of six my son is very tired on Friday night at the end of the week. Going to school with wrap around care is very comparable with going to full time day nursery.

However my son enjoys lovely holidays. He likes having one to one swimming lessons. At school he gets to learn cookery, recorder and French while I work. As far as I am concerned its a win-win situation. I get to work and my son does something useful with his time. Surely it has to be healthier than letting him watch TV?

I know of one little boy who was in reception who went to breakfast club as well as after school club. He is barely five years old. There is no doult that full time day nursery is far easier on a child. However his parents had strong reasons. One of his parents was on long term sick leave due to cancer and the other parent had to work.

Its sad when threads like this judge people without really knowing them. Life is hard and often less than ideal.

Can I just say - I feel that after my opinion was stated some of you have made very big assumptions of me.

My point - I personally would not put my baby into f/t childcare for anything other than essentials ie paying the mortgage, food etc

However, what you have failed to think, ask etc is my position. Both of my children went a nursery P/T before they were 1. I have worked p/t on and off for 7 years and I am lucky enough to have a big house, big tv, nice clothes, holidays. I realise how lucky I am that we can get by with DH salary at present.

Some of you are really just out for a fight, are'nt you? That fact that some of you are so defensive implies to me that you FEEL GUILTY. Oh dear, raw nerve?

I don't think it's about raw nerves at all HappyHoney. The fact is that people have all sorts of reasons for working, and for some people, using full time child care is acceptable. There is no right or wrong. Your situation - you working part time and your husband presumably full time?? (you don't specifically state it, but you imply it) is what suits YOUR family. Some fathers prefer not to work full time. Some mothers prefer to remain in a full time career. Why do you assume that anyone who doesnt fit your particular pattern must feel guilty??

Because of some people's reactions to MY opinion. I don't work anymore am PG and Dh works f/t.

"Some of you are really just out for a fight, are'nt you? That fact that some of you are so defensive implies to me that you FEEL GUILTY. Oh dear, raw nerve? "

Motherhood is a permament guilt trip whether you work or not. I find it sad that people are so bitchy to each other. I suppose it is a sign that stay at home mums are very bit as insecure about their decisions as working mums. Prehaps they have a raw nerve that their sacifice is for nothing.

I am sure that most of us wonder whether we are doing the right thing by our children. Ie. am I wrong in not buying a tiny house in the catchment area of a school with the highest SAT results? Should I let my son play out in the street?

As humans we are all different and what is a good decision for one family is not necessary right for everyone. In general children adapt to whatever is thrown at them within reason.

happyhoney - you are criticizing some peoples parenting skills. No matter what the issue, they are going to come out fighting. Better to fight than alter your life because of other peoples opinions.

"didnt bother you enough to do anything about it though"

What do you suggest I should have done? Chained myself to the railings of the DOE and set myself on fire in protest?

And I'm not 'anti-nursery', so why would I refuse on principle to teach on a course designed to train young people to work in the childcare industry? I think that many nurseries are very good and have a lot to offer children. As I said - my own children attend nursery.

"you are using your experience of specific set's of students to generalise and demonise nursery provision and in particular you single out babies in daycare as a particularly bad idea"

Except I wasn't generalising was I? I pointed out that there are many wonderful, mature people working as nursery nurses.

Yes - I do single out babies in full-time daycare as being something that I have concerns about. I think you'll find I'm not alone in this. Is there something morally wrong in expressing this view? Does it make me unsympathetic or judgemental of mothers who want to/have to, use nurseries in this way? I don't think so.

"and you are misrepresenting Sue Gerharts book."

Read the book monkeytrousers. Sue Gerhart has a lot of things to say. She DOES talk about Albanian orphans, among other things, and she also talks extensively about the possible long term impact on brain development of the higher levels of cortisol (a stress hormone) that have been observed in babies and small children in group day care.

ReallyTired - I repeat NOBODY IS MAKING MORAL JUDGEMENTS about parents. Why do you want to turn this into a personal mud fight.

"In general children adapt to whatever is thrown at them within reason"

Yes - children are very robust.

But there is also a view that much childhood and adult depression and anxiety is linked to our very early experiences of care. Personally this is something I am very interested to know more about, even if the things I read sometimes cast doubt on the choices that I have already made for my children and can't do anything about.

We can't always get things right. But if we're not allowed to even talk about it in an adult way for fear of making people feel guilty........

Sorry - should have said that I am not making moral judgements, nor are the many people away from mumsnet, who have raised concerns about the possible impact of full-time group daycare for very young children and babies.

The OP has been a bit judgey - but it's no big deal surely?

The sort of girls who get onto nursery nursing courses aren't overwhelmingly those who have 9* grades at GCSE

I 100% do not agree with this statement and to be honest, I am getting a bit pissed off with the assumption that nursery nurses are stupid/uneducated.

Is it any wonder that NN's have some of these attitudes when you consider the ways in which some people view them?

I have 2 level 3 qualifications, a degree in early years, 11 GCSEs from A* to D and have 2 kids myself. I am by no means in the minority either IME.

I know I have not followed the flow of the thread, but as an educated, competent and experienced early years practitioner I resent being grouped in with the minority of people who let the profession down.

One thing I will say though is that I love my job, the highs and lows of which there are many but will never love any child more or on the same level as I love my own kids, nor would I expect any other parent to do so, regardless of their job. But that does not mean that I am incapable of ensuring I provide the children in my care with a loving and emotionally stable environment when I am providing the care. It also doesn't mean that I leave work at the end of the day and give no second thoughts to any of the children. My evenings are pretty much geared to planning and arranging things to do with others' children. This is the case from the majority of early years workers too.

good for you dannat

I agree with a lot of what you say Titty. And, yes, there is a view that anxiety and depression can be linked to inadequate early care, although I would go further than that and say that singling out early care isn't necessarily helpful. All of our experiences shape who we are. I have done a lot of work with older children and teenagers, and I am very aware of the negative impact on young people, particularly boys, where there is an absent father and/or ineffectual mother. I guess we're all more tuned in to particular age groups depending on our own work experiences/our own children's ages etc.

P.S I don't agree Titty, that the OP is a 'bit judgey' and that it's no big deal. I am convinced the OP is a troll. If (s)he isnt then it's a bloody rude, offensive and illiterate OP!

Excellent post Dannat. Have to say from what I have experienced from ds' nursery staff I wholeheartedly agree with you. In fact - i don't think there's a member of staff there who doesn't have an NNEB or more. I certainly have no qualms about paying a little bit more for ds' nursery as I know the staff are paid well above minimum wage, and that is very important to me.

Ok have not read the whole thread, just bits of it.

I am a lone parent (dp fucked off when he found out i was pg, nothing i could do about it)

I have a very good well paid job, my childcare costs are a small fraction of what i earn.

My ds has been at nursery full time since he was 3 mths old.

You would not believe how much guilt i feel and how much i miss him every day.

Now answer me this questions:

What do you suggest i do?
Give up my well paid job and do what?
How do you suggest i pay my mortgage and bills while i stay at home all day?
How can i pay off the loans/debts i have out standing from University?
How can i clothe/feed my ds?
How will i pay for nice holidays like the one we have just been on (a cruise around the med)?
How can i give him all the nice things he deserves that cost money?

If you can give me reasonable solutions for these questions i will gladly give up my job and stay at home all day, Gladly!

If you can't, then fuck off you troll

I agree Suburban - and I did the same - paid more than average for a nursery that offered a particularly high quality of care and which paid its staff well.
It's funny isnt it - I've come across many mothers who berate properly regulated childcare and won't use a CM or nursery but will happily use an unpaid grandparent to look after their children! Many people working in the childcare industry are excellent at their jobs, they build warm and trusting relationships with the children they care for and encourage them into being confident and happy individuals. Of course, there are going to be some who aren't so good. Just as some parents aren't great. Or, more realistically, all of us are sometimes great parents, and sometimes we are fed up, tired, pissed off and don't get it right. Show me the perfect parent.