AIBU - to think that adverts for follow on formula should acknowledge breastfeeding...

[GillianLovesMarmite]

Having just seen the advert on tv for heinz (now hideously overpriced) Nurture (follow on forumla) which delivered the message that it is the best thing you can give your baby for its development...
Do you think it would be unreasonable that these adverts should recognise breastfeeding - eg saying that if you are breastfeeding that this is great and providing what your child needs, however, if you have chosen not to breastfeed or have chosen to formula feed, that this is then the stuff for you... and that the 6 month time thing is not a deadline to stop at but a target to aim for.
I realise that by 6 months I am now in a minority of mothers who are still breastfeeding. I acknowledge that everyone has a right to choose how to feed their child, or that sometimes the choice is made for them, often by conditions or factors outside of their control and I would NEVER presume to judge how another woman feeds her child.
However, I just think it would be appropriate for these adverts to acknowledge that if you are breastfeeding you don't need this stuff - although in the real world I know that this will never happen as they have a product to sell - but do you (whether bfing or ffing) think that this would be an unreasonable thing for the companies to do?

(Sorry for the long post - just really really annoyed by the advert).

Scroll down for the image, btw.

Yes, FFing would make my already bad PND a lot worse and I would have been an inpatient rather than an outpatient. This is good why?

I'd like to know what your experience of these masses of women with PNI is. Personally (running a site for people with PNI, going to support groups for PNI, being involved in things for a far longer time than I have been a mother myself) I have found that most women don't cite their method of feeding as the reason - in fact I don't know any. It is actually a real illness, not a bad feeling and most women with it have had a lot more going on than how they fed their babies which becomes an insignificance. I know plenty of women with PNI who successfully BF their babies and would say like I did that giving it up would have made things a lot worse for them. Actually feeding a baby helps the mother feel better, it releases all the feel good hormones that relieve pain, stress and make one feel sleepy.

willweeversell,
"But what is wrong with a company wanting to sell its product, especially if it has done lots of research and development and it has a licence to sell its product."

There is very little innovation or research in the production of formula since the days of National Dried Milk, which harks back to the times of rationing. The adding of the novel ingredients we have been hearing of in the past 10 years has more to do with getting the formula noticed by promoting the novelty and creating false arguements to imbue the belief that one product is supposedly superior to another further along or below the shelf. Aptamil, for example is owned by the same company who owns C&G and they are near identical stuff. But they have divided the market so that some mums will feel better in paying more for Aptamil because it costs more, hence must be better. Only Nutricia, the parent company, benefits from this tactic. They don't tell us mums what they have done.

As an example of how little has to go into 'improving' a product then charging more, look at the behaviour of Heinz with the betapol ingredient. It has added an chemically simplified vegetable oil which has been around for 10 yrs and used on the continent and called it innovation then marked up this 'novel' product by 70%.

In addition, only one trial of Betapol in formula was conducted and it was a tiny trial. There is a thread on MN which gives the details.

"personally I am completely in favour of the formula manufacturers being able to compete with each other "

But that would come at the expense of some babies, wouldn't it. If there was one formula which the scientific community would be able to able to agree was truly superior to the others, should that company have the right to charge 100%? 50%? 25% more than the others? How would the mothers feel knowing that they are giving their babies an inferior quality of formula simply because they live in a council house in an ex-mining village with no prospect of affording the better make?

All babies have the right to be fed in the best way the parents can provide. So if that means being formula fed, all babies have the right to have the best formula at a price that is affordable to all mothers and fathers, I would say. I don't see why formula companies are allowed to hide behind smoke and mirrors in order to justify their existence.

"I don't think it helps anyone to imply that formula is awful/poison/unethical or any other thing in a similar vein, because it is not. It is simply one way to feed your baby."

Where in the thread has anyone implied that formual is awful and poison?

NO one as far as I can see have said it is unethical. People and myself have said that the way formula is currently advertised is unethical.

I agree with Greenmonkies that it is poor support are the reasons you found and lots of mothers including myself found breastfeeding difficult and unsustainable. It is something which exasperates and angers me. Mothers have been set up to fail in many instances because the health service does not have the money or the expertise to provide the support it should be giving to mothers.

The problems which breastfeeding can bring in the early days are best confronted then, in the early days, not ante-natally. Problems can be so varied in type and degree, it is asking a hell of a lot to remember just in case you have one. Kinda like trying to teach someone to change a tyre the first time they have a driving lesson.

When all is said, many of the 'pro breastfeeders' on this thread are really out to support all mothers and babies. It does not always sound like it because this topic is so complex and emotive. Please don't be put off or take any of it personally. It is hard to put aside our pain, anger and disappointment of our own experience and look at the message sometimes. It is all a part of coming to terms with the loss of something you really wanted and it is an indication to me of the depth of your love for your child.

I don't see why there needs to be positive images of FF readily available. We all know formula exists, we should know it has possible negative health implications. Normalising it by positive government sponsored advertising undermines all the WHO and other health organisations, including the NHs, are trying to achieve in getting BFing rates up.

And there are plenty of media images of bottle feeding around for those that need to see it.

Daisy - There are people out there who have no one to reccommend formula for them who are perhaps like a friend of mine had her entire family and HV whining on about BF even though she just couldn't cope with it so we do need ads to help abit I think but again there should be more truth. Those who can't or don't want to BF shouldn't be bullied into it and made to feel useless if they don't keep it up everyone has their personal choice. I for one will try BF next time (IF THERE IS ONE ) but because I feel confident enough now that I think I could at least try but not everyne feels this way. I know someone who is just disgusted by the idea of it which is fair enough thats her Opinion.

Kiskidee

I agree wholeheartedly with much of what you are saying. I just feel, truly that people who need or simply wish to FF in this day and age, are treated much as those who wished to breastfeed 20 or 30 years ago. the pendulum has swung but too far, in my humble opinion.

The comment I made about people (some) having a perception of FF as poison or something like that is due to my own personal experiences. In my postnatal group I was the only one who FF. No one said anything to my face but occasionally they would (quite genuinely i believe) forget i was there or was using formula and would make comments about people who fed their babies formula, or would agonise about whether to use formula, all with a sense of distrist/ dislike over the whole topic. It was a horrible experience and eventually i gave up with the group as I felt like an outsider.

I am not, I hasten to add , prone to this type of feeling and can usually stand up for myself and feel good about myself in most situations, but the subject of how you as a woman feed your baby is so primal it has the potential to be incredibly damaging.

I do realise there are some risks in FF, but some of them could be prevented/reduced with decent information after birth, not just assuming people will all breast feed and never mind those who can't /won't. And bottom line, do we as a society really belive that the health differences as so significant that we 'sacrifice' whole groups of women to the cause?

"I live in Scotland and we have an advert for BF so why not for Formula?"

further down someone also said that BF and FF should have equal advertising. These two things are not equal though and they are not playing on an equal playing field either.

FF is already the norm in our society. Why does it need promotion? It needs accurate information with regards to its ingredients, use, benefits and unfortunately, risks. Right now, at least one mainstream formula is breaking the latest guidelines in safe preparation of the product which dates back to early 2007, if i am remembering rightly. I have seen it said that to prepare it to current guidelines makes it more likely to be lumpy. So in reality, this company is failing to pass out safety information so that it doesn't have to 'improve' its formulation. If this was something to do with building and construction, people would be taken to court and then jail if a death occurred for failing to pass on safety information.

One more thing. yesterday DD was looking for a feeding bottle for her baby (present from someone, she knows the bottle exist, have pondered throwing out the bottle but she knows it exists).

She couldn't find it and I don't know where it is. She began to cry and get angry that I wouldn't look for it. I suggested that she breastfeed her baby. She is 3. She is still breastfed so I know she knows about breastfeeding. She said no. I asked, why not. She said because she has milkies but her baby has a bottle. Bottlefeeding is normal for my 3 yo daughter who is breastfed. She does not need bottlefeeding normalised for her, it already is.

you know will, if my PN group was like that, I would stop going. I cannot imagine your pain but I can imagine how it must have made you scream inside. It is why I am fighting for women to succeed if they decide to breastfeed.

I also felt that primal urge connected to feeding my baby. I was amazed by it too, remembering making up feeds for my little brother who is 8 yrs younger than me and for many younger cousins and then becoming an aunt too.

Many times, the best type of 'help' a midwife or HV can give is to give a struggling mum like yourself and myself in the early days, the phone numbers to the breastfeeding charities. They don't even have to know much about bfing themselves. Just be big enough to acknowledge the limit of their knowledge and pass the mothers on to someone else who does.

I know I wasn't given the charity numbers and didn't that there were 4 of them! I struggled for weeks too. I saw my MW for a month because of dd's jaundice and the HV's only advice was to give formula top ups. it was MN and the mother of a friend who was bfing who got me through 'the other side' at about 8 wks.

kiskidee I do throw out bottles that come with any doll. It hasn't occurred to her, fortunately! She does offer them her straw and share her yoghurt with them She doesn't breastfeed herself, but they do breastfeed each other and she uses my fake breast training aid when she gets her hands on it (although it's so heavy she has to place it on her lap!)

I've always said no bottles, no dummies and no weaning sets! Especially when they are integral to the working of the doll as they will be thrown away!

Can I ask why no weaning sets Tink? I'm assuming you mean bowls and spoons correct me if I'm wrong here. Is there something to do with BF there? Genuine question BTW

but mamdiva, a fluffy advert that tells you nothing of what is in the actual product isn't information on the product itself. When I was pregnant with DS I used to wander down the baby aisle in the supermarket and knew what was available in terms of nappies, bottles, jars of food and tins of formula, dummies etc. I think most women do. And, as all formula mixes are much of a muchness, there isn't any one that is better than another and the only way to find one that suits you and your baby best is by trial and error. No amount of advertising will change that.

Formula information needs to be given out in as unbiased a way as possible so women can make informed choices. Adverts don't do this as they are all saying "buy me, I'm the best"

I honestly don't know if I hadn't spent three weeks in hospital (admitted myself) how we would have established breastfeeding. The hospital I am under are fantastic and took the time to help me, I also had MW's waking me through the night. I came home and the hospital MW's came to see me for a few weeks afterwards. I know I'm very fortunate to have such an early baby and to be ill (completely separate from the PNI) myself through it! But it shouldn't take something like that to have a mother take her baby home already full time feeding.

No weaning sets because we BLWed, so not BF related but part of normalising her life to her and that of her unborn sibling.

It is a long story why the bloomin' bottle exists, Tink. She opened the bloomin box herself and knows it is there. But one day soon, I will find it.

BTW, she had bottles of ebm at nursery and since she is at nursery she sees bottle feeding so it is not hard to think why it is normal for her.

I take her to the breastfeeding support group I go to though so she always sees bfing babies plus I have to bf her teddy (on the other side) at night and in the morning.

Oh, and sometimes we go through the ABM breastfeeding magazines to look for pictures of 'babies having milkies'. [aaaahhhh]

kiskidee, I also had a very pro BFing HV whose only solution to my BFing woes with DS was to thrust him onto my breast and say "there you go, he's feeding fine now" She wouldn't listen to the fact that I couldn't latch him properly myself or that I was really struggling as a single parent I the wee small hours with a baby who wouldn't feed and that if he did I was bleeding and sor for nearly half an hour afterwards. Not once did she give me a helpline number, I had no internet access, and my sister who was feeding her 9mo old helped but she wasn't trained in helping so it was limited what she could do (short of being a wet nurse but she balked at this when I begged her to do it in tears one day )

what she did tell me though when I finally switched to formula was that no one formula was better than any other so why pay through the nose for Aptamil when Farley's was just as good. I too had been wooed by the fact that more expensive must surely equal better.

Tink hasn't had much exposure to bottles - although she has fed my nephew (so cute proud face) and winded him, she was amazing! Firm but gentle, she did a better job than I did (I hate winding, so glad I didn't have that problem). She has seen bottles and dummies in her baby sets, but I guess she wouldn't really know what they're for. I've started asking if she has milk for Mummy and then munching her, she's so ticklish she's screaming no before I get near her.

Kiskidee - I can't argue with your personal experience of feeling judged, but I have to argue with your view that in promoting bf and flagging up the risks of ff we are somehow making moral judgements on those women who choose not to bf or who don't manage to bf. This is not a moral issue - it's a health issue.

At the moment well over 90% of babies in the UK under six months are getting formula, which is pretty much market saturation. Far from feeling any antipathy towards formula - the majority of bf mothers are using it within a few weeks of starting breastfeeding. It's the mothers who are trying to exclusively breastfeed who often feel they are swimming against a very powerful social tide.

In any case, while I do feel sorry for women who have negative emotions about their experiences of feeding their babies - however they choose to feed them - I do think we need to put the short and long term health of babies at the CENTRE when we consider this issue and not treat it as some sort of incidental concern.

At the moment the emotional and social needs of women are put centre stage in any discussion of this subject. If babies are mentioned at all it's ALWAYS in a sort of brief asside in which assurances are given that it 'hasn't done them any harm'.

Surely as adults we owe it to babies at the very least to be making properly informed choices on their behalf, even if it's emotionally difficult for us to address these issues, - and right now this really, really isn't happening in relation to infant feeding.

Personally I am one of those women who was very hostile to the idea of using formula. I got through half a tin with my first baby, but haven't brought or used any for either of my other two children. However, I never, never talk about my feelings on this subject with my friends as they all use formula and would think me very odd. I also don't want them to feel as though I disapprove of them. It's a shame your friends weren't a bit more thoughtful of your feelings when you were together.

Sorry - that last comment should have been addressed to willweeversell, not kiskidee.

titty I was addressing willweeversell's experience of feeling judged.

xposts

See, lackadaisycal, i wouldn't call her 'very pro breastfeeding' I would call her paying lipservice to bfing and hoping to shut you up so she can crack on to the next mum, which could have still been done if she had gently shoved a helpline no in your hand.

disclaimer to those concientious hv's out there: I know that your caseloads are horrendous, you see and hear awful things and they don't give you enough time or money to do any of your jobs properly.

As I say when babies can write letters and vote then maybe there will be better services provided for them by the NHS.

for the mums who take toy bottles/dummies away from their children - would you stop a son dressing up and playing with handbags with the view that you don't like it so you'll damn well stamp it out of their lives?!

No I wouldn't I don't believe in gender specific play. It's about normalising their world and if I carry a handbag then it's a normal part of their world. Dummies, bottles and weaning sets are not normal parts of my daughters world, it's nothing to do with her being a girl???

DD sometimes plays at 'giving birth' by sticking a doll up her skirt then mooing and moaning before dropping it out between her legs.

I don't think I'd be buying her 'lithotomy and forceps play kits' (even if the ELC did sell them)so she could play at giving birth on her back with her legs in stirrups, just like I won't be buying her bottles to feed her dollies with. OK - she might have an assisted birth and bottlefeed when she gets older, but I don't think it's good to encourage them to see these things as a normal feature of motherhood.

My son got a hold of one of my razors when he was 18mo, and what did he do with it? try to shave and cut his chin? No, he tried to shave his armpits as it's what he saw (we only used to see his Dad every other weekend) and what was normal; just like he used to put on makeup (well try to with hilarious consequences) and carry handbags around....but I wouldn't have given him a toy gun as it wasn't part of our normal world.

DD likewise has dolls and prams, but no bottles. Not out of me trying to stamp them out, it just never occurred to me to buy them.