AIBU - to think that adverts for follow on formula should acknowledge breastfeeding...

[GillianLovesMarmite]

Having just seen the advert on tv for heinz (now hideously overpriced) Nurture (follow on forumla) which delivered the message that it is the best thing you can give your baby for its development...
Do you think it would be unreasonable that these adverts should recognise breastfeeding - eg saying that if you are breastfeeding that this is great and providing what your child needs, however, if you have chosen not to breastfeed or have chosen to formula feed, that this is then the stuff for you... and that the 6 month time thing is not a deadline to stop at but a target to aim for.
I realise that by 6 months I am now in a minority of mothers who are still breastfeeding. I acknowledge that everyone has a right to choose how to feed their child, or that sometimes the choice is made for them, often by conditions or factors outside of their control and I would NEVER presume to judge how another woman feeds her child.
However, I just think it would be appropriate for these adverts to acknowledge that if you are breastfeeding you don't need this stuff - although in the real world I know that this will never happen as they have a product to sell - but do you (whether bfing or ffing) think that this would be an unreasonable thing for the companies to do?

(Sorry for the long post - just really really annoyed by the advert).

Jacblue, if your child was ill and not gaining and you had tried as hard as you felt you could then made the decision to go on to formula, then why would anyone think there was anything wrong in that?

No-one here is saying that it is wrong to give your baby formula milk, just that it has risks, and those risks should be known to anyone about to make a decision.

I'm sure, to you, those risks did not outweigh your baby's health problems, whereas for other people it might do, it's a case of prioritising your own feelings about the risks.

A friend of mine had troubles breastfeeding and, with my support, worked her bollocks off to re-establish a supply (she had introduced bottles) and did every thing she possibly could to be able to breastfeed her baby, she managed it, found it tough, but did it, when she had got back to exclusive breastfeeding it was discovered that her baby had severe reflux and she was offered a prescription formula, she stopped BFing, after much soul searching and put him on the formula, though she would love to have breastfed him and is aware of the risks she made the right decision for her and her baby. I'm still bloody proud of her!

Jacblue - nobody should say to you that you 'have tried long enough' or 'not tried long enough'. It is down to your particular judgement. If you cannot sustain a baby's growth with your breastmilk then you have little option other than to a/f.

The thought that did come into my mind reading your post was about the different approaches of different bf 'experts'. I know 5 bf counsellors. They are not all equally good, equally qualified or equally experienced - some have vastly more experience than others and one is also a lactation consultant. Some bf problems are more intractible than others and sometimes benefit from a different approach. But only a mum can know how far she is able to go to seek a solution to her breastfeeding problems, when for a small number of people there simply won't be a way of resolving the difficulties.

Have to say that comments like "I am pro bf (although pro freedom of choice too)" do make me feel . I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who's not pro-choice here or anywhere else. That being the case, I do wonder what the point is of these comments, unless they're veiled insults designed to suggest that those who are vocally pro-breastfeeding are somehow intrinsically 'anti-choice', which of course they're not.

mollycherry, I'm sure the BFing mums weren't thinking that at all, but it is easier to make contact with someone who is going through a shared experience. And I'm sure if they were looking at you, it would be with no more question than wondering why you were using a feeding room to bottle feed which you can happily do anywhere. I know when I was FFing my DS I thought that feeding rooms were for the privacy of BFing mums who weren't comfortable with the fact that they might get odd looks or have difficulties being discreet with their feeding in a public place and as such I didn't feel the need to use them.

JacBlue, I echo what VS and TBB have said; You did all that you could for your baby and no-one will condemn you for that. I was in a similar situation with DS; although his weight gain wasn't the issue, it was my comfort. And when at 5.5 weeks I was in danger of shaking the life out of him in sheer frustration at his inability to stay latched on or feed without hurting me I knew that something had to change. When he took expressed milk from a bottle, he lay there gurgling up at me happily and I knew then that stopping BFing was right for us at that point in time, although I felt so guilty about it at the time. I now know that with support it could've been different and I have stopped blaming myself for what I perceived for many years as my failure. I still wish though that someone had told me more about the possible risks of feeding formula, rather than just spouting "happy mum, happy baby" at me.

Thank you for kind and supportive comments. Much appreciated.

Tittybangbang - "Have to say that comments like "I am pro bf (although pro freedom of choice too)" do make me feel . I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who's not pro-choice here or anywhere else. That being the case, I do wonder what the point is of these comments, unless they're veiled insults designed to suggest that those who are vocally pro-breastfeeding are somehow intrinsically 'anti-choice', which of course they're not." - meant nothing by it other than the fact that I didn't want to be 'jumped' on for appearing anti-ff! Help!!!

One of the "problems" I see is our obsession with weighing babies. I think weighing should be banned and only allowed if, looking at the baby (and there are many other visual signs if there is a problem), there might be a appears to be an issuer.

I realise that this is an easy answer with hindsight - but how many mums on here say that they don't bother getting thier seocnd weighed - or if they are weighed, are weighed much less frequently? Doesn't that say something abut the real value of getting the babies weighed? It deosn't imporve our peace of mind - it is something else to be worried about.

A lot of the time people go on to formula 'cos they are worried about thier baby's weight gain. In some cases that they well be a problem - but there would be other signs as well: a dehydrated baby, listless, etc.

I don't know the details in Jacblue's case, (in that I am not sure if she means he had put on no wieght at all after the inital drop or just had not regained birthweight) but in my ds' case, he took 8 weeks to regain birthweight. That on its own is not a problem. If I hadn't being weighing him, I wouldn't have known - and therefore wouldn't have been worried - as he was otherwise healthy, happy and alert. That could so easily, without the right support and attitude, been the (perfectly understandable and jsutifiable) motivation to start giving him formula.

SO many people - HCPs in particualr, misinterpret the growth charts and want every child to follow a pretdetmined curve not understadn that the nature of startistics is that normal individual variations have been smoothed out.

Not following a growth chart is not failing to thrive. To assess "Failure to thrive" properly, you need to look at the whole baby.

I'll get off my soapbox now!

Good point prettybird, would also sort out those babies that are too heavy and need to go 'on a diet' - err they're babies!

Wow prettybird. That sums up loads all at once and I agree with it all!

dd was 5 lb 11oz when she was born. In first week she went up to 6 lb and that was where she stayed until 8 weeks. ds was 5 lb 8 oz, went down to 4 lb 13 in first few days I think and then went back up to 5 lb 6 oz and stayed there until 8 weeks.

Could have done with you on my shoulder and, as it happens, when dd was a few months old new HV arrived who was amazing. She used to say that dd was happy and 'bonny' and bouncy and so I should take from that that she's just fine. Pity I didn't take that advice with ds but other HVs managed to shout louder.

You're right - after initial bfing probs with ds hardly weighed him at all. Knew by then that dd was fine - just petite, so chances were he'd be too.

dd is now nearly 5 and will be starting school in 2-3yrs clothes and ds is 2.5 and wears 12-18mths - little titches! They are happy and healthy (touch wood).

One thing my sister said after the event (she had her dc later than me) was that the charts we are given are based on American ff babies. I don't know how correct this is or even if it makes a diff but you'd think there'd be a possibility that those babies may be heavier in general than bf british? Maybe I'm completely wrong about that though.

I seriously think if I'd have had your opinion with me back then (and the great HV who came along a little late)I may have stuck with bf longer. Who knows. Not having 3 (on purpose anyway - have in mind about all those happy accidents - little brother included!) so won't be able to put theory into practise.

I wish I could have been around Jacblue! As it was, I did help some Mums via the breast feeding support group run by the maternity hospital, where I "guested" at a couple of ante-natal workshop: I apparently inspired them when they had problems with bf - if I could work through it, then so could they (met them letter at the actual breast feeidng support group, although by then I could only attend internittently as I was back at work full time. But all I was doing was passing on the inspiration that I had been given by the mum at my ante-natal workshop who had persisted through problems. She had inspired me with issues even more major than mine: my ds just didn't gain weight according to the charts - she had a ds who was a nipple refuser and ended up feeding through a nipple shield the whole time - but that was better than the expressing she was about to embark on. But like my ds, he was a petit wee boy - unlike the other wee boy at the ante-natal workshop who was an absloute bruiser - off the scale at the top of the charts).

The charts we have now are not based on ff babies - they are based on babies fed by any means (so the majority would have been ff). See tiktok's (voiceferous) postings on the subject There are however some new charts around based on bf babies - but they could cause even more angst to new bf mothers as the initial weight gain is even faster and only tails off later (IIRC): but remember all babies are different.

I seem to remember that there is also a debate now about whether they should continue to use the centiles (although this may be for older kids) as a measure to "aspire to". If we are, on average, becoming too fat, then we don't want to be "judged" on whether somebody is on the 50th centile (ie too fat) or not!

YABU- they have a product to sell, just as any other company does. IMHO its ads for coco pops that should be banned-far more unhealthy IMO. Would you ask them to put on the coco pop add ' these are a great cereal but really you should give kids shredded wheat, weetabix because its better for them. No I think not. Mothers are fairly intelligent beings and will make the choice they feel is right for their child- regardless of advertising.

I completely, wholeheartedly agree that babies are weighed too often. Anyone from the March 08 thread might have heard the tales of my mad health visitor before, and I apologise, but this thread has reawakened my rage!

Little Ff is just that - LITTLE. She has slowly but surely gained weight since birth, plotting her own line just below the very bottom centile. She was very refluxy for quite a long time, which I believe was the main reason for her slow weight gain, because in every other aspect she is absolutely fine.

Mad HV insisted that she be weighed every week from when she was about six weeks old, and seemed genuinely scandalised when I told her that I was having no problems breastfeeding so would not be 'topping her up' with a formula feed. MIL is a lactation consultant with 30 years plus experience, so I have plenty of support and advice on tap. (And believe me, if I was doing anything wrong with her pfb grandchild I would know about it...) Every week when HV weighed little Ff she would give me her best patronising look and say, 'Well, you know what I am going to suggest.' as if I was somehow conspiring to keep Ff small on purpose. She had already conceded that it was te reflux that was keeping her weight down, and so I failed to see that introducing formula, which was likely to make her more sick, would help.

She sent me to the GP, who prescribed Gaviscon, and also told me that as I was insisting on bf (that's right, reckless old me risking my baby's health by 'insisting' on bf) I shouldn't let her sleep more than 4 hours without being fed. This led to me spending two months setting an alarm for four in the morning to wake a peacefully sleeping baby to feed her. Eventually I decided that this was insane, and that rather than listen to HV I should take the advice of every other person I know, who had greeted the news that I was waking up a baby who I was fairly sure would go eight hours without waking as lunacy, and let her sleep. She has now slept from 11.30 ish to at least 7.30am without fail for two months, and her weight gain picked up straight away.

The GP couldn't find anything the matter with her, but told me that her slow weight gain could inhibit her progress later on, and refered her to a paediatrician. He also dropped in that his daughter is a few weeks older that little Ff, and his wife had stopped bf to switch to formula, because really there is no difference between the two... Paediatrician told me that she was delightful, and there was nothing the matter with her.

I now have a 25 week old who weighs 11lb 6oz. She is small, but she is eagerly devouring anything solid I have offered her, babbling, rolling over, trying to crawl, and generally doing everything that all babies her age are doing. She is happy, sleeps well, and has fitted beautifully into a routine.

I am so, so angry that what have otherwise been six amazing months, have been marred by a crazy woman trying her level best to make me worried about my daughter. Even when I told her that I was feeding her until she literally wouldn't swallow another drop, and was then expressing until my nipples hurt after every feed to make up a bottle of hind milk that I would force down her after her bedtime bf to ebsure she was getting as much as possible, she still tried to make me feel like I was a terrible mother for not considering formula. I'm fairly confident and strong, with great support from family and friends, so was able to stay strong, but I hate to think that she is behaving like this towards women who are not quite so confident.

Had I not been weighing little Ff every single damn week I would have been perfectly thrilled with her development, but as it is I have constantly had a nagging thought at the back of my mind that there is something the matter. It isn't surprising that so many women ff rather than bf if this is what the 'support' offered is like. Obviously I except that my HV is probably a little madder than most, but the GP was no better.

Right, I am jumping off my soapbox now, and reiterate my first point that weighing babies too much is counter productive and puts unbearable pressure on mums who are already dealing with a pretty stressful period.

Shall we do an synchronised jump off our soapboxes FfreckleFface

I too had fabulous support - but fortunately managed to avoid any contact with HVs (except for the standard 6 week checks/immunisations) so at least evaded that potential for stress.

Let's. One, two, three jump...and relax...

Crikey FfreckleFface, poor you. Not often we say thank God for the MIL!!! (Actually mine's fab, but I digress.)

Wholeheartedly agree and the only piece of advice I EVER give a first time mum without being asked is "trust your instinct", because it is something that is definitely not encouraged, really hard to do when there's 'more experienced' people around you with 'the right answer' and in most cases is what's right.

... that feels better!

Shall we start a Mumsnet campagn?

Ban the scales. Ban the scales

Jacblue, it sounds like your kids are on the same line as Tink. She's 25 months and only just going into 12-18 she still wears some 9-12 comfortably and has some clothes 6-12, has been crossing over for months she grows so slowly. Looking at her chart she will be in 2-3 when she starts school (she is generally in clothes for half her age). I've been told that my genes may give her a boost (I'm 5'9" and her dad is 5'8") and take her up a few lines to 5'6" instead of the 5'2" she on course for, her dad's genes will keep her from catching me up.

I love my petite dinky baby!

Sounds like it. Very helpful because a)you spend money a lot less frequently on clothes and b)friends kids pass them in clothes size so lots of handmedowns.

Mine won't have a hand from me at any stage though as I'm only 5'3". I think dh is about 5'10" though so I'll just have to watch this space. They say it's rare for a man to be shorter than his mother so hopefully this will apply to ds!

I love mine as they are too. Easy to carry/throw up into the air/etc. Often forget when with my friend who's children are same ages as mine but at the very tall end of the scale - without thinking I'll let dd walk up me and tumble over in somersaulty way, then I'll look over and friend is being made to do it with v tall and quite a lot heavier dd! Oops.

It never fails to astonish me that health professionals can accept that some adults are more petite/heavier set than others and yet expect babies to follow different rules. I mean, all those petite people out there must have been petite babies at one time, yet as adults, no one is insisting that they drink 4 cups of Complan a day to gain weight!

Ban the scales

Make them look at the baby and assess whether it appears to be healthy.

I don't know about money, I think I still spend the same on her because I know she won't grow out of things too quickly. I find it funny when I start getting hand-me-downs from people I gave hand-me-downs to at the start!

People keep saying she doesn't look that small, but when you see her with kids her age or size there is a big difference and when you look at her clothes size. People insist on telling me she will catch up, her size doesn't bother me and my BFing counsellors (a MW and a HV with specialist BF training) said she won't because she has kept to her line. They said you see some charts where the baby has suddenly cut through the lines at six months and gone from off the bottom to 75%, but because she didn't ever do that she won't.

My ds did eventually "cut through the lines" (at about 6 months) to eventually reach about the 50th centile. Not sure exactly when as I had stoopped weighing him by then!

just out of interest, why would any company acknowledge in its advertisments an alternative means to the end which didn't result in their product being purchased?
what next car companies having to advertise cycling or public transport as it's better for you/cheaper and will get you there in the end?

i think there should be more responsibility on the consumer to inform themselves especially when it comes to products which may affect health

@Tori32 - it does say at the bottom of the screen on the Coco Pops advert "enjoy as part of a balanced breakfast", which is a coy way of saying that this product has no goodness in it whatsoever.

The Guardian had a good article a while back regarding how cereals were no good for you anyway, they are just a way of using up the by products of the wheat industry. But this is off-topic anyway...

I agree with the original post btw. I'm not sure how much bf is pushed here in Birmingham PCTs (though we do have adverts on buses for it!) because I always intended to bf so was left alone. Had I said i wasn't going to, I wonder how the MW and HV would have addressed that. I'll ask my non-bf friends and family how they were treated.

I sometimes feel a bit out of it on these threads as they don't fit with my experience or expertience of mums I know.....i totally see forumla as normal....I don't get any argument that it is bad for a baby and for me it has made parenthood much more straightforward than what my sisters told me it would be - one had pnd and struggled with breastfeeding...and their was a very direct link and she had support.....each to their own but I think it is wrong that bf suggest that ff is inferior........that is narrowminded in terms of the broader context....well at least for me....if anyone else agrees they can let me know!

I see, TinkerBellesMum, so mine will be teeny for a while longer then.

I remember dd when she was 10 mths old making people jump when they spoke to her. She was a very early talker and had about 10 words by then, BUT she looked like she was about 5 months old so you can imagine their surprise when she talked back!

The weirdest thing I've ever seen was another small little boy. He was running around my friend's house at 8mths (which is a bit bizzare in itself for me as mine were both v late walkers) but because he was so small he looked about 5 mths old. He reminded me of that dancing baby on Ally McBeal!

Cryptoprocta I was never asked about BFing, although I did have a premature baby so I don't know what would have happened if I had gone later. I had a lot of support in the hospital, they never asked how I wanted to feed her but as soon as I asked when I would be able to they did they everything they could to get us established. I've spoken to parents of prem babies in other hospitals and the care seems to vary although I haven't found anyone who had as good an experience in another hospital as I did. The PCT does have a training programme for breastfeeding buddies, but it would seem that most HCP's don't know about it. There is a fantastic group in my area but, again, most HCP's don't know about it. Most HCP's however in this area were trained by the two ladies who run the group and tend to be pretty good on breastfeeding. I guess for me I was fortunate to come under a fantastic hospital and find a brilliant BFing group. I can't really speak for the rest of Birmingham.

Becka1, it is inferior according to any scientific study (even SMA were put to shame when they tried to do a study showing how their milk was better for a certain group of babies and completely failed to prove it) but lets not let science get in the way of narrow-mindedness, eh?

BTW, PNI is an illness it's caused by the body malfunctioning, not because of how you fed your baby. Next person to tell me that finds out how hard a woman with PNI hits

Jacblue, I was told so with Tink, your family and the fact your children stuck to their lines would probably suggest the same. I love dinky babies though! I know what you mean about shocking people, I had this baby looking about 3-4 months sitting in a highchair cleaning her plate! People were always commenting on it because they didn't think she was old enough to be eating so well. She was also a late walker, which I put down to her size. I looked at her lying on her front and trying to get onto all fours and she was so close to the ground it must have been very daunting for her and I think that her size may have made walking difficult, maybe because her legs weren't big or strong enough? No proof of course, but I like to understand things so getting a theory helps! Also she's a perfectionist, she doesn't do anything till she can do it properly.