To be really pissed off at a big arguement I’ve had with my husband about sexism

[budgiegirl]

DH and I are on our last evening of a lovely holiday. Bit we’ve had a huge argument this evening because he doesn’t seem to believe that sexism in the workplace still exists. He told me it doesn’t happen at my work (male boss, all others women), at his work (he’s the boss, all others are women), he doesn’t believe there’s a gender pay gap in this day and age. He said he doesn’t believe there’s sexism because it doesn’t affect him! When I tried to explain it doesn’t affect him because he’s a man, so doesn’t really notice it, he denied it.

Things got a bit heated, and when I tried to calm it down, say let’s put it behind us, and go out for dinner for our last night in this beautiful city we’re in, he refused, and told me I’m horrible because I always have to be right, I told him that’s because I am right, and have gone out on my own, because I’m not sitting in a hotel room for my last night here.

AIBU to be so annoyed that my DH doesn’t seem to think that sexism still exists?

Jesus. He should see behind the scenes at my old workplace, where standard procedure when a woman reported sexual assault and harassment by a male colleague was that she was immediately put on sick leave or sent on secondment while an ‘investigation’ took place (which would go on for a year or more with little progress and no resolution), during which time she was banned from any communication with her colleagues on pain of sacking.

The accused man was free to go about his life and work as usual. If his accuser didn’t voluntarily leave her job, and they had to complete the ‘investigation’ rather than quietly let it drop, he would get a slap on the wrist, some awareness training, or in very serious cases a payoff - while the woman he assaulted or harassed came back to the office under a cloud of rumour and suspicion, and the constant threat of being sacked if she told anyone the truth about why she’d been away for so long.

Very prestigious organisation where this went on, as a standard HR process. And before any grievance could be lodged, a female accuser had to run a gauntlet of HR reps and managers explaining to her over and over that these were very serious accusations that could make things very uncomfortable for her in the workplace, and was she sure she really wanted to take it further?

So many women driven out of their jobs one way or another to protect abusive men.

Oh dear god. Do some research. Use your brain. That’s not what I’m saying.

Has he changed since you got married or have you never ever touched on the issue of sexism ever??
I can imagine not ever sitting down and talking about the wage gap specifically, but have you never... God, i dont know, watched a 90s movie with some misogynistic attitudes in and one of you has commented on it, to throw out a random example? If you were typing this in the year 2000 maybe id understand, but sexism has been all over the news for the last few years, have you never been watching TV or in a conversation with others where its come up?
Does he like to think himself an expert on other topics he hasnt actually done any proper research on?

This would annoy me, but not to the extent that I would let it spoil the last night of a lovely holiday. Your relationship with your spouse and their feelings are more important than being right in an argument.

I would have played the long game - I know I’m right so would have presented various bits of evidence over the coming months. He might already be convinced but not conceding out of pride.

But ultimately your relationship and spouses feelings are more important.

Do you disagree about anything else. I find it best to avoid discussing issues such as these with my DH. He ALWAYS thinks he is right and quite frankly is a know it all so I discuss them with my friends. Your particular argument cannot be proved one way or the other. You don't work in his workplace and he doesn't work in yours so......

Why is he so angry about the possibility that you might be right and he might be wrong?

I mean, you could be an insufferable know it all, but could it also be that he feels his is the default voice of authority?

Just tell him that alleging prejudice against a group of people you are not a member of doesn't exist because you've never personally experienced it is the epitome of ignorance.

I'd have let him have his moment of being right, then over dinner ask fantasis with him about the exciting future you have together... maybe ask what days he wants to work and stay home when you start a family.

Watch his face as he scrunches it up all confused about why you think he will be working part time.

Worked in big firms where this came up in conversation at eg dinners or Christmas parties- secretly most men seem to believe this, they also believe most women go pt and have it easier, and that men are holding up the family. All the people saying don’t have a child with him will be shocked that their own dhes think this (my dh does, although he squirmed a little saying it)

He is being obtuse and displaying male privilege.

Sometimes it is easier to talk about everyday barriers women face.

Does he think it is as easy for a woman to stay in a hotel in a new city for work as it is for a man? How might she behave differently from locking the room door and putting a wedge under to her choice of dinner venue walking alone at night.

Has he ever felt guilty for staying late at work , has anyone ever intimated he is a lesser parent because he works f/t? Is he first call when the dreaded phone call (your Dc has a temperature…) comes from school?
Etc.

No he’s not allowed different opinions that are based on fucking fairy stories he tells himself when his fucking wife’s LIVED EXPERIENCE is this fucking bullshit for decades

He can fuck the fuck and learn to deal in FACTS rather than emotions !

He just doesn't get it. When I was younger I worked in retail and salaries were set, men and women on the same rate so I always thought that proved there was no discrimination. It took me years to notice that men were much more likely to be promoted. One of my colleagues was a buyer for our branch and went for a group buyer role. She was very experienced and great at her job, despite this the position went to a man who had absolutely no experience, and unsurprisingly he turned out to be rubbish! After that i noticed that it was almost always men who ended up in management roles, even though at least 80% of staff were female. All the top brass were men so they were looking after their own.

I've never been happy with gender pay gap statistics.
For example, look at the official report for Arsenal FC at...
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/employers/12191
.. where women earn 5.6% more than men, despite the highest paid player (male) earning £15m!

I work in a male-dominated sector. I have had big levelling-up payrises with more than one employer. I've never had children or worked part-time. Obviously they didn't put money into my pension to level it up. And there's no gender pay gap?

I've got a host more formal qualifications than my male peers (and more than many who are senior to me.) Without that, I don't even get a look at an interview. Yet there are so many ineffective men who get jobs and get promoted.

Then there's all the little things, like signs on datacentre doors saying, "Beware, men working behind doors." Obviously it's no hazard if I'm the one lifting floor tiles. The field engineer looking at a server, just making conversation, "it's really unusual to see a woman in a datacentre." On their own, these sorts of things don't matter, but there's the cumulative effect, death by 1000 cuts, it's all telling you you don't really belong. And these things never affect my male colleagues. None of them has ever been assumed to be the secretary (who has secretaries these days anyway?)

If there was no sexism, I wouldn't be the only woman sitting in my office with about 25 people there.

And that's IT. I've heard some tales from friends in banking and academia.

There might not be Pirelli calendars on the wall any more, but there is certainly still sexism in the workplace.

Wouldnt it be simpler to leave him if he won't think the way you want him too

Doesn’t believe in the gender pay gap? Is he alright? Ask him now whether he believes the earth is flat or vaccines are a conspiracy.

YANBU. Funnily enough I had a similar argument with my female cousin (of all people) when we went on holiday together. According to her, misogyny isn't a thing anymore, and neither is sexism, despite me providing vast amounts of evidence to the contrary. Our disagreement got very heated too. It turns out you really can't argue with stupid, and you have my sympathies OP.

I was going to say this too. Sometimes, people don't get it, if they've never experienced it. They think it's so far in the past and we've moved on from the times of racism, because it's not as overt as it used to be.

It's the same with sexism... men often don't get it, since it doesn't affect them.

Only recently my BIL mentioned how he didn't realise women felt so vulnerable and fearful walking home in the dark...because of potential attacks from men.

It's no excuse in any of these cases, but denying it exists is myopic.

He told you that contrary to your belief and experience there's no sexism in YOUR office - where you (a woman) work and he (a man) does not - and THEN he tossed his toys and called you "horrible" because YOU "always have to be right"??

In your experience, is he stupid - I mean, genuinely unable to think logically or form a rational argument? Because otherwise, something else is going on here.

Denying that discrimination exists is very triggering for people who’ve experienced it so it can evoke strong emotions. If he’s denying sexism exists in his own workplace that may be true, if he’s denying it exists altogether then that’s absolutely bonkers - he just needs to look at the stats of women working in construction and he’ll see that sexism and the gender pay gap is alive and well!!

watch this: woman is invited on a sky news debate to discuss the gender pay gap.

half way through her male counterpart lets is slip that he is being paid for the debate….and she isn’t. Says it all…

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1DWmK2zrrK/?mibextid=wwXIfr

OP did try to stop it ruining their last night by suggesting they put it behind them and go out for dinner. The husband chose to remain in a huff, why didn't he consider agreeing to disagree for the moment and putting his wife's feelings above his pride?

Depends how the conversation went down.

The gender pay gap is not very well-explained by sexism but is fairly well-explained by other factors.

”I’m always right because I’m always right” isn’t great either.

”You don’t see X because you’re an X” is an argument that can be made for any X.

I'd have made the point that this entire set up shows that sexism exists, and that he has directly benefitted from it.

Did he say sexism doesn’t exist, or doesn’t exist in the workplace? Or did he mean in his workplace?

Sexism will vary by workplace/sector. In my 30 year career I have only once experienced sexism and that was by a very stupid man and that was 20 years ago. Maybe twice -one more example thar may or may not have been due to his sexist attitude to ( young as I was) women. In my sector it would be very unusual I think, and certainly not institutional. Well, until gender ideology came along and attempted to institutionalize sexism as they were lied to about the law, but my organisation has withdrawn from that too after the Supreme Court ruling. So it’s entirely possible your H has not seen sexism at work because it doesn’t happen there.

Gender pay gap will also be down to a variety of factors. Last time I looked at the data ( a while ago now) women and men were doing equally well at work until women have children. Women’s careers tend to stall then and of course many women chose to return part time, as well as taking periods out of work for maternity.