For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

“Several factors contribute to this decline. Economic pressures, such as the rising cost of living and housing, play a significant role. Many young people are delaying or forgoing parenthood due to financial instability and the desire to establish their careers first.”

Yep, COL definitely not a factor

@Anarchy99I think so now but that was less the case years ago

@Crushed23 no one has claimed women in the public eye are propping up the birth rate though?

Why are you using women in the public eye to dismiss all the evidence that a lack of income & security is a factor in declining birth rates?

@Crushed23 or maybe you can link to something that says affordability isn’t a factor?

When I was growing up and even well into my 30s, the families who had lots of children were the ones that MN claims don’t exist - several generations of economically inactive people whose sole contribution to the world was popping out more recipients of benefits.

I think that may be less prevalent now though, thankfully

It’s an interesting discussion and I would love to see how Gen Z get on, and whether they do indeed start having more children as a status symbol. I know more of them subscribe to the ‘trad wife’ trend - perhaps an early indicator?

Thank you for this. I'm not really following the celebrities argument to be honest because some of the examples are having more children than a supermodel or actor because their husband's careers are the money. Tania Ramsay is not the breadwinner and nor is Jools Oliver.

The "barriers" to having children as a famous woman are not about money; they are as time poor as many of the rest of us. It doesn't matter if they can afford a nanny. Their childbearing years and most productive working years are, unless you're Judi Dench or Helen Mirren, the same.

Someone like a minor Royal is a much better example of a woman who doesn't face your average challenges and can choose to have one or five.

Are Gen Z going to be a wealthier generation?

@AMarkAMissionABrandAScar

Agree, I think the models I listed with lots of dc are all married to very rich men.

Im not sure about Devon actually but she comes from a very wealthy family.

This is her husband:

• Profession: Private equity analyst and investor (formerly at TA Associates and founder of Velos Partners).
• Education: Harvard University graduate (Class of 2007).
• Background: Son of a Cambridge Associates co-founder.

I'm going to say he's loaded! 😂

I agree that being childfree by choice is completely socially acceptable now and that's a good thing. DH and I (in our 50's) are the only ones in our family to have chosen to have children - his three siblings are all childfree by choice.

Smaller family sizes have also been the norm in recent decades, I know a few people with three children, for example, but not many. Whereas having two or three siblings was more common for my generation.

Money also plays a factor, of course. How many people can afford large families nowadays?

I'm also interested in how Gen Z approach this. There's quite a resurgence of Trad Caths in the young people coming into the Church and there are few things more traditional in Catholic circles than having lots of kids.

There's going to be a big shift of inherited wealth over the next 10-20 years as the boomer generation die off or pay out chunks from their pensions (I work in the charity sector and there's expected to be a bulge generation of inheritances).

That's too late for gen Z to factor it into breeding, but Alpha may show a rebound. My son is late Gen Alpha, and might do an "only child" rebound - I know several adult only children who've had bigger families.

@AMarkAMissionABrandAScar Fair point but he might not be in quite the same league as Arnault or Spiegel!

The biggest factor is likely to be choice/reliable contraception.
Also affordability people are considering quality of life when thinking about having children
And leaving it too late/ not finding a partner

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis I’ve read conflicting things about this inherited wealth, how it may get targeted more for social care costs & house price suppression. I agree that anything I get will largely go to my dc.

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis

Won't Boomers mostly be the parents of Millennials, who were born between 1981 and 1996? And some older Gen Z'ers.

I always get confused with the generations, I'm Gen X and my children are Gen Z. I hope they don't inherit from me in the next 10-20 years. 😂

Yes it is slow/fast life history.

This.

6 women in my immediate circle spring to mind who don't have children and all of them wanted children. 1 was naturally infertile, 3 just didn't meet someone in time 2 were with men who didn't want children. Only one advertises the fact she had wanted children.

In contrast about 50% of the men I work with are childless and are openly enthusiastic about that fact. The older ones seem relieved that they are past the point where they are expected to provide children. The fact there's a website called Mumsnet suggests woman remain interested in having children, men less so.

I'm sure there are many reasons for this situation but one is that we are a much more progressive society now which is good, and the outcome is women are expected to work and typically choose to have sex before marriage. Both good things, of course, but men would have been a lot keener to settle down when settling down was the only way to have sex and women who weren't expected to work could start having children at a far younger age.

We should be grateful. A sharply declining birthrate in our culture is a sure sign that the role of women in our society has changed for the better.

There's a huge amount of evidence that people are just choosing not to have kids. It's a massive problem already in places like Japan, and would probably be there too if not for immigration.

But MN is much more than a site for parents these days - with the extensive number of boards, it’s a broader appeal

How would people born in the late 40s/50s be parents of children born in the 80s and 90s. I’m sure there would be some but the boomers didn’t tend to wait until the age people do now so they are the parents of GenX

Whether it is a problem depends on your point of view. Of course it’s an economic issue but ultimately women are more free to make choices that suit them instead of automatically being expected to marry and have kids and also it’s less harmful for the planet long term (and presumably those of you with children have a stake in the long term future).

First two and half minutes of Idiocracy, evolution is going backwards:

One could argue that some of the reasons listed are still a choice.

A woman who discards unsuitable men and ends a series of unfulfilling/loveless relationships as none of the men are suitable baby-daddy material is making a choice. She is not settling (as she shouldn’t - we have enough dogshit dads in society as it is).

A woman who has the funds to have a baby on her own with a sperm donor but decides against it is also making a choice.

These are of course completely valid choices (indeed as a 37 year-old woman with no children and no desire to go it alone I have made these exact choices).

In some cases, what people mean by being child-free “not by choice” is that they did not achieve their personal optimal conditions for having a baby, so decided not to have one. They absolutely could have had children, but decided not to (often the most sensible choice in the circumstances).