Is this bullying or is it normal for 8 year olds?

[AmILosingMySanity]

I’m so sorry for the length of this. DD is in Y4. For the last two years or so, she’s had a lot of trouble from a former friend/frenemy in her class - let’s call her Emma. It’s involved name calling, exclusion, following her around the playground shouting mean things, etc. It was really tricky and school were rubbish about doing anything about it. This child is of course all sweetness and light as soon as there’s an adult within earshot, and horrendously cruel as soon as a teacher leaves again. One of the saddest things was that sometimes she’d reel DD back in and DD would come home all excited because she’d been nice to her and they were friends again for a couple of weeks, only for the whole cycle to start again.

They’ve now gone up to the junior school, on a different site, with different teachers, who don’t know the kids at all. Emma has teamed up with another known bully - a really quite disturbed little girl, “Mia”. It’s well know that Mia made another child’s life absolute hell last year, so was separated from her this year. She’s on the look out for a new victim and having got together with Emma, she’s found DD. She’s punched DD in the face (but school says that because nobody saw it, it doesn’t count and they can’t do anything about it). If DD answers a question in class, Mia sneers at her quite openly. She comes and destroys DD’s craft projects in the playground almost every day. Last week, Emma, Mia and one of their friends (also not famous for being kind) cornered DD in the changing room and chanted at her that she was disgusting and weird and gross. DD said that it went on and on and on and she couldn’t get away.

The school didn’t let us know that this had happened. They have claimed repeatedly that they have contacted the parents of the three girls responsible but I know from those parents that the information they were given hugely downplayed the seriousness of what happened and they weren’t told about the name calling at all.
I am really upset and angry and am trying to get the school to implement their own Anti Bullying Policy and put in place some sort of proper consequences for these kids, as a deterrent to them and two other kids who are sort of borderline hanging around with the bullies and, I think, considering joining in - the only consequence that two of them have had is to miss 15 minutes of break time. I think Mia, with her history, is being kept on a tighter reign at school and kept away from DD. School are treating me as though I’m crazy and insist that I must never refer to them as “mean” and that they are actually kind, lovely and gentle children and have called me in to talk to the school counsellor “about what is normal behaviour for children this age”.

I feel completely gaslit but maybe I am completely unreasonable and this is normal and acceptable behaviour for Y4 kids? I have hardly slept all week for worrying about it, so it’s hard to see the wood for the trees any more.

Other children in the class have reported the bullying (of DD) to the teacher, so they do know that she’s not inventing it.

I take on board that they’re probably not going to be willing to give a visible consequence, in that case. What would be a reasonable thing for us to ask for? The bullying policy says that they should be having meetings with the parents and the child and a member of the SLT. I think that the Head of Safeguarding may possibly have had a meeting with Mia’s parents but definitely not Emma’s - but given that they have been telling us repeatedly that “they’ve telephoned the parents” and it turns out that they never mentioned this incident to them during this phone call, maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. Maybe a meeting would just be more whitewashing anyway. But as I say, I need to make sure that I’m being reasonable and not letting my anger get the better of me, so thank you for the reminder.

Very poor management.

Keep going in and phoning every single time it happens. Girls can be vile to each other and it IS bullying.

I had to deal with quite a few mean girls when i was teaching.

The school needs to do more.

Personally I would my daughter in you position.

If you don't want then you need to focus on your daughter. You can't talk about other kids things like gspr mean they keep it all vaguely (rightly) but you can ask what will they do to ensure these incidents are repeated, what will the do yo strengthen her relationships with other children in her class, how will they monitor her wellbeing ect

The thing is they can't actually tell you. You say they definitely haven't spoken to Emma's parents but you don't know that. They can't go into details about another child with you.

To me moving your child might be for the best. If they have spoken to the girls and their parents and it's still continuing and your DD is unhappy then I would look to move her. The school can put it multiple consequences but ultimately if your DD is still unhappy I would look to remove her from the setting that's causing the upset.

I’d copy in the governors tbh.

I think you may need to look at other Schools really .My NDN had a problem like this years ago. and it was never dealt with properly then either .Independent Schools rely on fees ,and 2 parents v 1 means more cash for them! What are other Schools like in your area ?You may find a State school will deal with problems more fairly .

You need to play hardball. Document what you can remember, and everything going forward. Ask your DD for names of kids who were nearby each time. Go to the governors and the head. Avoid value judgements (mean, nasty, etc.). The facts speak for themselves.
💐

This is key. Documented facts are essential and present a clear picture of what is happening.

@AmILosingMySanity I repeat what I said earlier but more bluntly; consequences given to other children than your own are none of your business. School doesn't have any obligation to tell a parent about consequences for other children. What they do have a duty to say is how they plan to safeguard your daughter so that no more bullying incidents occur. That you should insist on them telling you.

I think if you have already communicated to them anything like this op, they aren’t going to be on your side. It’s extraordinarily entitled to think that you can decide the punishment. You can have no idea what they are doing or why. The only thing you can focus on is your own dd. Moving her would be the obvious answer but there seems to be something stopping you doing that. I can’t personally think of anything that is more important than stopping my child of this age being bullied.

It is none of your business what they do with others

It's a business.

They are better off pissing off a single family (you) so that you leave rather than pissing off several families (Mia, Emma and however many hangers on there are) who might then leave

That's the cold truth of a business - you prioritise the customer grouping who is most valuable to you.

It won't get better unless so many parents look like they are at risk of leaving that the balance tilts the other way.

So I am afraid the only real option is to move your child to another school.

This school sounds shit, but also if another kid punched one of mine in the face they would absolutely lamp them back and have mine and their dads full support. It is an unpopular opinion but a lot of the time that’s all that works and the budding little nutcase will find a new target.

I would probably be inclined to move mine if I was in your position. Even if the kid does leave them alone (looking unlikely) the school have just been totally shit and I would not trust them.

I'd be very inclined to move her. One of my children went to a private school. He couldn't wait to get out of there. He was far happier back in the state school system. There was bullying in the private school too though physical bullying probably wasnt as much an issue for him with a martial arts background. Some of the children were quite genuinely nasty and manipulative - some of it was quite frightening. The thing about private schools is that they want to keep parents on side so that they don't withdraw their children. The teaching is not always top notch either especially maths. My thought is that you can hire a lot of tutors to give your child individualized attention for a fraction of the price of a private school.

Report to the School Governors and Ofsted.
Although I would move her to a better school.