Is this bullying or is it normal for 8 year olds?

[AmILosingMySanity]

I’m so sorry for the length of this. DD is in Y4. For the last two years or so, she’s had a lot of trouble from a former friend/frenemy in her class - let’s call her Emma. It’s involved name calling, exclusion, following her around the playground shouting mean things, etc. It was really tricky and school were rubbish about doing anything about it. This child is of course all sweetness and light as soon as there’s an adult within earshot, and horrendously cruel as soon as a teacher leaves again. One of the saddest things was that sometimes she’d reel DD back in and DD would come home all excited because she’d been nice to her and they were friends again for a couple of weeks, only for the whole cycle to start again.

They’ve now gone up to the junior school, on a different site, with different teachers, who don’t know the kids at all. Emma has teamed up with another known bully - a really quite disturbed little girl, “Mia”. It’s well know that Mia made another child’s life absolute hell last year, so was separated from her this year. She’s on the look out for a new victim and having got together with Emma, she’s found DD. She’s punched DD in the face (but school says that because nobody saw it, it doesn’t count and they can’t do anything about it). If DD answers a question in class, Mia sneers at her quite openly. She comes and destroys DD’s craft projects in the playground almost every day. Last week, Emma, Mia and one of their friends (also not famous for being kind) cornered DD in the changing room and chanted at her that she was disgusting and weird and gross. DD said that it went on and on and on and she couldn’t get away.

The school didn’t let us know that this had happened. They have claimed repeatedly that they have contacted the parents of the three girls responsible but I know from those parents that the information they were given hugely downplayed the seriousness of what happened and they weren’t told about the name calling at all.
I am really upset and angry and am trying to get the school to implement their own Anti Bullying Policy and put in place some sort of proper consequences for these kids, as a deterrent to them and two other kids who are sort of borderline hanging around with the bullies and, I think, considering joining in - the only consequence that two of them have had is to miss 15 minutes of break time. I think Mia, with her history, is being kept on a tighter reign at school and kept away from DD. School are treating me as though I’m crazy and insist that I must never refer to them as “mean” and that they are actually kind, lovely and gentle children and have called me in to talk to the school counsellor “about what is normal behaviour for children this age”.

I feel completely gaslit but maybe I am completely unreasonable and this is normal and acceptable behaviour for Y4 kids? I have hardly slept all week for worrying about it, so it’s hard to see the wood for the trees any more.

This is an area where I would imagine state schools are better than private. Private is a money making business, so they have a vested interest in not losing money or reputation. State are more likely to do what’s right.

Omg you are also paying for your daughter to be treated in this way? Move her for Christ sake. It’s clear the school won’t do anything and they don’t have your daughter’s best interests at heart. How bad do you want it to get before you remove her from that environment where she is bullied on a daily basis?

@AmILosingMySanityjust say you’ll contact them anyway. And the ISC? It can’t harm to do it. I find it shocking that private schools aren’t actually held to account? And I would also call their bluff, you’re making me feel like I’m being a nuisance and where the safeguarding of children is concerned this is really worrying.

for comparison, at my daughter’s state school her teacher told me ‘always remember you’re your child’s biggest advocate. Don’t ever worry about upsetting teachers or being a nuisance. Make noise and be loud and be your child’s voice.’

I bet these children’s parents have a lot ££££ which holds influence at private school sadly!

And if you do leave, make sure you post scathing reviews wherever you can. Trust me, that will wreck them!

They need to SAFEGUARD your daughter, they are currently NOT doing this. Insist on safety for your child! Those children should be made perfectly aware that they do not understand any circumstances look at, talk to or touch your child.

I’m really sorry this is happening to your DD. In view of what you’ve said, I think I’d have a deadline in mind by which you expect to see improvement (end of term?), go in all guns blazing with the school as per the advice above, but be prepared to move her if it hasn’t stopped by your deadline.

It sounds as though the school isn’t committed to tackling either bullying in general or the behaviour of these specific girls (potentially vested interests at play?). In my experience, bullying among girls is often worse in Years 5-6 and you don’t want her to have been identified as a target.

My niece was getting bullied. The school were the same saying it wasn't happening/wasn't as bad as she was making out until they caught the bullies hurting her and calling her names. My SIL thought they'd finally do something when they admitted it was happening. The school decided they all needed to be friends and tried to get them to make up with each other.

SIL moved DN to another school for Y5 but the damage was done, she'd stopped eating/hid food when she ate etc. Shes fainted from lack of food. She's getting treated through the hospital and she's doing well but at 9 years old she'd developed a eating disorder due to school bullies.

If the school aren't listening move her. I hope you and your daughter are ok and manage to get through this.

If your daughter isn't being safeguarded then you can contact your local authority to report failures in the senior leadership team to safeguard children, it doesn't matter that it's a private school when it comes to their duty to safeguard. Also contact ISI yourself to report your concerns. However, in this case I would just move her to a new school as it sounds absolutely horrific and the longer it goes on the more likely she is to suffer long term mental health issues as a result.

This . Bullying can do untold damage to a child’s emotional wellbeing

This is awful and you need to move her ASAP. The school is prioritising money over kids' wellbeing.

I think when I say that I want a deterrent, I’m thinking of actual, visible consequences, that the other kids see, but perhaps that is just not realistic or reasonable? Something like not being allowed to take part in the Christmas fete, or being moved down a sports team. A consequence that the others see and want to avoid. Perhaps that’s unfair of me?

Either they have a totally different perspective to the situation than yours, or they are seriously failing at their duties.

If the latter, what are you insisting on getting them to act up when they've all failed so far over and over. Change schools.

I wouldn’t be pushing for punishment for the other girls. I would be pushing for my child to be separated from them at all times. Different class, different areas at break time, different tables at lunch etc. Sounds like they think it’s a bit of “your child is too soft” (which I dont agree with at all by the way) but I would lean into it for her sake of getting what you want…. My daughter’s wellbeing is affected, it’s undermining her confidence, she no longer wants to come to school. Start keeping her off after incidents, tell the school that’s why. “Jennys incredibly anxious to come back to school after yesterdays incident so I will be keeping her home” keep reporting everything and how it effects your daughter and you want them separated not what should happen to the other girls

Sorry your daughter is going through this. If the school aren't doing anything about then you need to move her. Private schools are a business and they are going to want to keep the bullies as its more for them.

Those examples are unlikely, even in our state school.
As stated our consequence would be missing lunch (this is like a detention but called reset where the teacher on the rota talks to the children about what happened why it happened and what the effects are) and then making a card to say sorry.

@AmILosingMySanity You shouldn't be focussed on consequences for the mean girls- only on the safeguarding of your dd. You don't care what happens/doesn't happen to them as long as they are not bullying your dd, right? Also, school will think you're vindictive rather than worried about your child so don't take this path.

Since it's a private school I would send a mail to all people involved where you give examples of your dd being bullied and how the school has a duty of care to safeguard ALL children. If they don't you will have no choice but to make this public (they will hate that). But personnally I would not let my child stay in this school. You are paying for her to get bullied which is just absurd. Look at state schools.

School sounds dreadful and honestly with that kind of attitude I wouldn’t want my child there anyway. And you’re presumably paying for her for to go there and be bullied every day! I would go nuclear over this, bullying is so damaging and the school have been totally ineffective in dealing with it.

These aren't realistic consequences IMO. The thing you need to focus on is preventing it from happening again. Increased supervision etc.

No its not normal 8 year old behaviour. Yes its bullying.
Sadly it is very unlikely to stop, especially with how the school is handling it.
Your daughter needs to be moved away from that class, if thats not possible, move schools.

Unfortunately, 2 sets of fees V 1 set of fees, you will find yourself as the problem. IME also depends on the other 'contribution' the other families make, being it financial, prestige of having the parents or if the kids have talent the school wants the reputation of.

Schools won't do visible 'punishment' regardless of state or private. You will be told that its none of your business and any difficulties the others face are private, even when their behaviour makes it public.
I'd be tempted to move schools, but you will likely have the same issue elsewhere, girls that age up to 13 ish can be vile. I'd probably ask for your daughter to be moved groups away, out of school work on confidence, maybe a martial art, that won't help now but by teenager they won't dare mess with her.

Of course it’s not @AmILosingMySanity Your child is being bullied and the school are failing her.

is this the right setting for her? Do you have other options? They sound utterly useless and the longer it goes on the bigger the impact on your daughters self esteem.

I’m so sorry this is happening to your daughter. I see you say it’s an independent school, we had similar in a private school. You aren’t in the north east are you by any chance? Just it really rings a bell with how you say they are dealing with it.

Two schools have now chosen to believe the accounts of other children over that of your daughter. So I think in your shoes, I'd change approach, and ask them to describe the dynamic from their perspective, as clearly if a child is making repeated bullying accusations, there is something amiss somewhere. And it's not good enough to simply tell you 'there's nothing to see here' when clearly there is.
So, if there is no bullying, why do they think DD is repeatedly saying there is? I'd want some very robust observations about my own child to justify their consistent disbelief of her. As well as their plan to support her if they have decided its a her problem.
Because while you (understandably) are talking about other children's behaviour, they can shut you down. But they can't refuse to discuss your own child with you and you've a right to understand why DD feels intimidated and is getting hurt at school.

I know it’s easier said than done, but I would move her too. But I speak with the value of hindsight. My DC went through similar and the school was completely ineffective and dismissive. I thought this was normal. It’s had a long term effect on my child’s self esteem. Your line that they didn’t see it and so couldn’t do anything was exactly on I was on the receiving end of in response to an assault.

Now at secondary school, I have observed how a school operates when proactive in dealing with issues, being supportive and looking to resolve problems quickly and the difference it makes to all involved. I am so sad and frustrated that I didn’t remove my DC from their primary setting.

What you want is very unlikely to happen. They won't ban them from Christmas fete or move them down in the sports team. And that won't stop the bullying, it may make it worse?

I would immediately contact the school governors.

Is there a reason you want to keep her in that school?