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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

515 replies

KwellsBells · 16/09/2026 14:53

I personally have always thought she is guilty, and even more so since the report findings were published.

YABU - still on the fence/ still believe she is innocent

YANBU - she’s guilty

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Firefly1987 · 28/09/2026 22:43

@Oftenaddled but they did have reviews Confused

Oftenaddled · 28/09/2026 22:44

Firefly1987 · 28/09/2026 22:43

@Oftenaddled but they did have reviews Confused

Arranged an external review

rubbishatballet · 28/09/2026 23:29

kkloo · 28/09/2026 22:32

This to me suggests it did and that Myers received it as a result of the disclosure.

"On 9 December the defence set out a disclosure request setting out requests for material based upon the evidence and behaviour of Dr Evans and that is based upon not just material pre-trial but importantly the way his evidence has developed and been presented in the course of the trial. We have had some disclosures and we are grateful for those. We received some more this morning to which I shall make reference. There remain requests outstanding.

On 15 December, the defence were provided with a decision of Lord Justice Jackson in the Court of Appeal Civil Division relating to an application for permission to appeal in which a report by Dr Evans was submitted to the court as further evidence in support of the applicant's case. Your Lordship has that, of course, and I have put the references in the bundle. We have also received the report to which that related."

So all very standard then - provided following a request for disclosure by the defence. No inter-judge personal warning letters or emails.

kkloo · 28/09/2026 23:53

rubbishatballet · 28/09/2026 23:29

So all very standard then - provided following a request for disclosure by the defence. No inter-judge personal warning letters or emails.

Not necessarily, it sounds like it was provided by the court, but when it was provided to the court surely it wasn't just sent to them with no context?

FrippEnos · 29/09/2026 09:52

Quitelikeit · 28/09/2026 22:30

@isitmadnessorwine

If people are defending her and claiming she isn’t guilty then I think it’s ok to say - would you allow her to care for your child?

Do you know something though - Sally Clarke? I would have trusted her with my baby!

I don't know whether she is innocent or guilty.
I believe that the evidence, medical theories etc. are unsound and do not meet the required level to find her guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Dolphin37 · 01/10/2026 11:53

isitmadnessorwine · 28/09/2026 21:24

So what people are really trying to say is how sure are you? This sure? You’re so sure you’d trust her with your child? (given that most people’s children are their most loved and cherished ‘possession.’) And if someone hesitates then it’s a sort of ‘aha! See you aren’t sure, are you?’

But that isn’t how the judicial system works, or at least it isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

So what people are really trying to say is how sure are you? This sure? You’re so sure you’d trust her with your child?

Given the two possibilities in this case, the right question is: would you rather have your nenonate cared for at CoCH by non-Letby personnel, or at a good hospital where Letby is one of the nurses? I'd certainly choose the latter with what's known today.

ProfessoressaSazzasez · 02/10/2026 12:20

Viviennemary · 23/09/2026 21:02

It is a vile thing to do. No better than bringing in a coffin before somebody dies. Sometimes I despair.

Did she know the baby was still alive before she came in?

Lovemuesli · 03/10/2026 12:54

I find it hard to believe that some people still think she is guilty. Lucy is 100% innocent. I am just hoping that there will be a retrial and that she can walk free.

KwellsBells · 03/10/2026 15:09

Lovemuesli · 03/10/2026 12:54

I find it hard to believe that some people still think she is guilty. Lucy is 100% innocent. I am just hoping that there will be a retrial and that she can walk free.

I find it hard to believe that some people still think she is innocent. Lucy is 100% guilty.

OP posts:
Emilesgran · 03/10/2026 15:53

KwellsBells · 03/10/2026 15:09

I find it hard to believe that some people still think she is innocent. Lucy is 100% guilty.

You do but then you thought this Thirlwall investigation that said it was taking her guilt as its starting assumption and was NOT investigating that at all would somehow provide extra proof that she was guilty. So clearly you’ve made your mind up regardless.

So what evidence could make you think that MAYBE something different happened other than a female serial killer (that rarest of hyper-rare criminals) working in the NHS without anyone noticing?

rrreally · 03/10/2026 16:38

It really would be interesting to have the consultants and some other medical staff around her under the same level of scrutiny to see how their behaviours compared in their day to day working lives.

KwellsBells · 03/10/2026 18:00

Emilesgran · 03/10/2026 15:53

You do but then you thought this Thirlwall investigation that said it was taking her guilt as its starting assumption and was NOT investigating that at all would somehow provide extra proof that she was guilty. So clearly you’ve made your mind up regardless.

So what evidence could make you think that MAYBE something different happened other than a female serial killer (that rarest of hyper-rare criminals) working in the NHS without anyone noticing?

People DID notice.

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 03/10/2026 18:50

KwellsBells · 03/10/2026 18:00

People DID notice.

They only noticed that their death rate had gone up and that she had been on duty for most of the deaths

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 19:55

So what evidence could make you think that MAYBE something different happened other than a female serial killer (that rarest of hyper-rare criminals) working in the NHS without anyone noticing?

Isn't multiple doctors stitching up a nurse for being a serial killer even rarer? And not ever going back on that through all her arrests and years before the trial. Despite the fact she's so clearly "innocent" to so many people on here...

ProfessoressaSazzasez · 03/10/2026 20:26

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 19:55

So what evidence could make you think that MAYBE something different happened other than a female serial killer (that rarest of hyper-rare criminals) working in the NHS without anyone noticing?

Isn't multiple doctors stitching up a nurse for being a serial killer even rarer? And not ever going back on that through all her arrests and years before the trial. Despite the fact she's so clearly "innocent" to so many people on here...

I don’t see many people saying “she’s clearly innocent”.

I see a lot of people saying they don’t think the conviction is safe (which is not at all the same thing) for reasons to do with the conduct of the defence, the submissions of the expert witnesses & doubts that can be cast on the prosecution case.

And there are people saying “she’s clearly a monster” - which she may of course be - but often based on non-evidential points & hearsay (some of which could not have been her).

So I still don’t know if she’s guilty or not. I’m still pretty sure the conviction is not safe.

If she is guilty, that’s a terrible result: I’d like her conviction to be beyond reasonable doubt.

If she is not guilty, that’s a terrible result.

In either case, especially for the parents.

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 20:52

@ProfessoressaSazzasez

I don’t see many people saying “she’s clearly innocent”.

Some have though, and the PP I was replying to seems to think so.

I see a lot of people saying they don’t think the conviction is safe (which is not at all the same thing) for reasons to do with the conduct of the defence, the submissions of the expert witnesses & doubts that can be cast on the prosecution case.

And that's peoples' opinions as is their right. And there will be people who thought the trial was fine and this is just nitpicking because people don't like the verdict.

And there are people saying “she’s clearly a monster” - which she may of course be - but often based on non-evidential points & hearsay (some of which could not have been her).

She definitely is a monster.

In either case, especially for the parents.

But they've never said they have any issues with the trial. It was 10 months long, it's unreasonable to expect it to have been perfect.

Emilesgran · 03/10/2026 21:49

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 20:52

@ProfessoressaSazzasez

I don’t see many people saying “she’s clearly innocent”.

Some have though, and the PP I was replying to seems to think so.

I see a lot of people saying they don’t think the conviction is safe (which is not at all the same thing) for reasons to do with the conduct of the defence, the submissions of the expert witnesses & doubts that can be cast on the prosecution case.

And that's peoples' opinions as is their right. And there will be people who thought the trial was fine and this is just nitpicking because people don't like the verdict.

And there are people saying “she’s clearly a monster” - which she may of course be - but often based on non-evidential points & hearsay (some of which could not have been her).

She definitely is a monster.

In either case, especially for the parents.

But they've never said they have any issues with the trial. It was 10 months long, it's unreasonable to expect it to have been perfect.

You quoted me but without notifying me. Is that a habit of yours or is it only when you mindread the poster in case they answer and contradict you?

I’ve never said I believe LL is “clearly innocent” because I don’t know that. But I do know that the hospital has been shown to have been very badly managed, so it’s highly likely that deaths happened as a result. It’s even quite possible that LL, who was working all the overtime she could get to pay for her house might have accidentally been responsible for some of that poor care.

But your false equivalence doesnt work because you’re basing it on a single event and generalising out from that. Your argument is basically that people don’t stitch other people up. But they do. So instead, you pick a whole set of rare circumstances all occurring together and say “Well in that one situation they don’t stitch other people up because we don’t know of any other similar instance where it turned out that somebody had stitched them up.” Which is not comparable to my argument at all.

Because I started from the general case: very few women are murderers, and those who are, generally murder someone in their own family. Serial killers are almost entirely male - and even then most of those have had horrible upbringings. Serial killers within a medical setting are even rarer. Harold Shipman for instance was known to be a drug addict, and was making money from some at least of the old people he killed.

Putting those things together, it’s vanishingly unlikely that a young woman who has no obvious signs of being mentally ill or having suffered massive trauma in her youth and with nothing to gain from killing, would for some inexplicable reason become a serial killer of unknown children. It would have to be the only possible explanation. And when the hospital is failing as badly as we know that one was, it’s clearly not the possible explanation.

HTH

Emilesgran · 03/10/2026 21:58

KwellsBells · 03/10/2026 18:00

People DID notice.

They noticed that the death rate had gone up, and that LLas often - but not always - on duty when the deaths happened. But she was working far more shifts than almost anyone else (the others all had their own children and weren’t free to work overtime) Then they selected the deaths that occurred during her shifts so it looked like it could only be her.

ProfessoressaSazzasez · 03/10/2026 22:10

This reply has been withdrawn

Post withdrawn at author's request

Catpuss66 · 03/10/2026 22:31

KwellsBells · 03/10/2026 18:00

People DID notice.

If you mean 2 doctors who knew because of a ‘gut’ feeling, they did nothing but pass rumour around for 12months, is that what you do if you suspect someone killing babies. Even the Jayram allegedly perjured himself in court said he saw her do nothing, he then left her on her own to care for the baby is that what someone does?more likely that we’re incensed they had to apologise to her after her grievance.

truffleruffle · 03/10/2026 22:49

PestoQueen · 16/09/2026 15:08

I’ve also seen A LOT of ar$e covering - NHS is full of it, younger staff scapegoated , it’s very prevalent, the culture within the nhs is highly toxic and hierarchical, doctors are treated differently to other staff and sadly a lot of weak and also arrogant managers too -so it feels so unlikely that it’s as clear cut as it says I’m afraid

Edited

That’s been the case for many years. Protect the doctors and managers and scapegoat a junior

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 22:58

Catpuss66 · 03/10/2026 22:31

If you mean 2 doctors who knew because of a ‘gut’ feeling, they did nothing but pass rumour around for 12months, is that what you do if you suspect someone killing babies. Even the Jayram allegedly perjured himself in court said he saw her do nothing, he then left her on her own to care for the baby is that what someone does?more likely that we’re incensed they had to apologise to her after her grievance.

Edited

What are they supposed to do when all they have is suspicion? Dr Jayaram probably couldn't believe what he was seeing. All this is very easy to say in hindsight now we know she is a serial killer isn't it. I'm not sure he did leave her on her own, hadn't the designated nurse returned by then?

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 22:59

truffleruffle · 03/10/2026 22:49

That’s been the case for many years. Protect the doctors and managers and scapegoat a junior

The doctors weren't protected though, the managers were trying to find a way to get rid of them. They absolutely weren't listened to or protected, Lucy was. Her dad even threatened one of the managers.

Oftenaddled · 03/10/2026 23:09

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 22:58

What are they supposed to do when all they have is suspicion? Dr Jayaram probably couldn't believe what he was seeing. All this is very easy to say in hindsight now we know she is a serial killer isn't it. I'm not sure he did leave her on her own, hadn't the designated nurse returned by then?

It was February. She was on the ward until July. The babies she was responsible for were in a different room so she was back in there after the designated nurse returned. She would have been alone with babies dozens of times before Dr Jayaram said anything to anyone.

What's so hard to believe, anyway? That she wouldn't know not to observe such a small child desaturating (if she really didn't call him?) Surely you'd mention that to the nursing manager, circulate a policy, have a word with her? He didn't need to believe he'd foiled a murder plot to take sensible, drama-free action. But nothing. For over a year he said nothing.

Catpuss66 · 03/10/2026 23:46

Firefly1987 · 03/10/2026 22:58

What are they supposed to do when all they have is suspicion? Dr Jayaram probably couldn't believe what he was seeing. All this is very easy to say in hindsight now we know she is a serial killer isn't it. I'm not sure he did leave her on her own, hadn't the designated nurse returned by then?

Not that I was aware as Lucy was the one who called him, which he forgot to mention in court. They went to the police later still with no evidence after 5 external reviews. Go have a look at someone called Jim Thornton on FB he posted an email from senior nurse who was present she gives her feelings in this email.i don’t want to post it publicly as not sure where it was sourced from. I presume court transcript.