If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

[KwellsBells]

I personally have always thought she is guilty, and even more so since the report findings were published.

YABU - still on the fence/ still believe she is innocent

YANBU - she’s guilty

That is disputed. Phil Hammond in Private Eye has described this as a letter (email) from Jackson to Goss, but I don't see how that can be verified with an external source.

It can’t be verified because there was no letter. Or are you suggesting that Jackson/Goss decided to confide in Phil Hammond about their private correspondence?

Obviously that's not the only way Hammond could know about a letter. I wouldn't die in a ditch over this - Jackson's criticisms of Evans seem apt to the Letby case whether or not he took the step of contacting Goss about them. But I wouldn't attribute the reference to confusion on another poster's part when it's a claim made by Hammond.

I think it’s a bit of a pointless question, as I don’t have babies and won’t have again, and she won’t be nursing again, but I don’t believe a child of mine would be in danger from her and I’m afraid I can’t really answer otherwise.

I am taking the reports with an enormous pinch of salt, I shall put it that way.

We do know it had been sent to the court, so presumably it was sent to the judge, and presumably also he didn't just attach the judgement without providing any context so there would have been a letter/email.

ETA: It's not clear who exactly sent it to the court.

How could the Thirlwall investigation which explicitly said it was NOT looking at her possible innocence but was instead starting from the assumption that she was guilty, have convinced you more of her guilt?

I could see the opposite happening: since the hospital was so disastrous (as per the findings) it would not be surprising that many otherwise avoidable deaths of very ill and vulnerable new norms would happen and not be properly identified afterwards.

In fact it seems certain that that would have happened. Which doesn’t necessarily mean the deaths LL was blamed for, as who knows how many deaths could have been prevented - but it might do.

I think it’s fair to ask those on here who are defending her if they’d be happy for her to look after their vulnerable baby

You think she wouldn’t return to nursing if she was freed? Hmm I’m not so sure about that she was quite determined to be back on the ward and had a preference to be looking after the sickest babies

There’s no way I’d trust her around any child if she was to be released and honestly with this pathetic govt in charge it really wouldn’t surprise me if she was allowed to be registered again! It’s probably human rights related!!

@Quitelikeit i am actually confident she will eventually be released although I do think there may be a wait.

However, she will not lead a normal life. She will be unlikely to work at all, she will be relying on any compensation money she gets and / or PIP handouts, etc. She will suffer extensively with anxiety and depression, probably some PTSD and may well turn to alcohol or prescription medication as a coping mechanism. It’s unlikely she would be in any fit state to work and she wouldn’t be put back on the register anyway.

Her life is ruined irrespective of whether she’s let out or not, which is why this case is so very uncomfortable. It isn’t just her life either, it’s many others intertwined with this horrible case.

It's tangential to the discussion. The standard for finding someone guilty is no reasonable doubt about their guilt. The standard for babysitting/ nursing is rather different. Mud sticks, and few will be able to forget the accusations, even if Lucy Letby emerged from prison psychologically fitted for such work.

I don't think I would have left my child with Sally Clark after she was released, but I believe fully in her innocence.

Genuinely, do you think it's just about whether she actually wants to or not? That's the second time someone's raised that in a few posts and it's just odd. The NMC have a process. These are the criteria she'd have to meet, after at least 6 years in prison and not having been in practice for at least 10 and a half- and it could be much longer.

https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/information-for-registrants/restoration/

They don't just let you be restored because it would make you happy. In this instance, they'd be asking someone with PTSD, a lengthy layoff and who couldn't actually go into a public facing role because of the sheer level of interest in the case how she plans to get back into practice and how she's going to get professionally up to date.

Fwiw I wouldn't want her looking after my baby even if I'd had divine notification that she was innocent. People who've been in prison for years then had their convictions overturned are often not very well.

We don’t know this at all. We know that the defence submitted it to Goss as part of their application to exclude Evans’s evidence, but there’s nothing to suggest it came to them via Goss/the court.

So what people are really trying to say is how sure are you? This sure? You’re so sure you’d trust her with your child? (given that most people’s children are their most loved and cherished ‘possession.’) And if someone hesitates then it’s a sort of ‘aha! See you aren’t sure, are you?’

But that isn’t how the judicial system works, or at least it isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

We know that. It's a simple hypothetical question where you don't need to think about the logistics of her getting her job back. She's never getting out anyway so the whole thing is moot in any case.

Hell if you don't like the question then just pretend it's 2015/2016 and she's still working in a hospital and then ask yourself if you'd want her looking after your baby.

I think she'd want to for sure. No normal person wants back on a unit where all the doctors think they're harming babies but she wasn't going to let that stop her. She'd try and get back to nursing and then when she's not allowed her supporters would probably protest about it.

Then? Sure, but I have no babies so it's hypothetical

If it's only a simple hypothetical basically aimed at trying to get people to acknowledge if they have any doubt, that can be made without going oooh, you never know because she might really want to.

Personally I think even 2015-16 doesn't make people sound particularly well-informed, and that's as someone who's not sure either way, because ultimately that's not the standard of proof in criminal courts. But if you want to make that argument, you're better off not making it sound like you think the NMC would reinstate her if she asked nicely.

Leaving might have looked like agreeing with the doctors. At her age and level of experience I can imagine doing the same. At my age I would lawyer up within minutes...

Yes and so hypothetically?...actually I think you already answered in a previous thread so I already know you would. But maybe you're less sure now.

No, I'm not less sure now.

I can't see any reason why I wouldn't have left a baby with her as she was in 2015/16, as dozens of parents did. The charges against her make no sense and are unsupported by logic or science. But I don't think it's a sensible question.

I am fairly certain that had LL not raised the grievance but left quietly the whole thing would have gone nowhere; she’d probably be at a different hospital, likely living a pretty normal life.

So she would have got away with it then. Like she has got away with possible previous crimes at another hospital.

I'm not sure why you're comparing yourself to the dozens of parents who left their child in the care of COCH (not her specifically) when they had no idea she was a baby killer back then.

There is no evidence any of these babies died of natural causes. I wonder if you even think the managers were completely right in trying to keep her on the unit?

@isitmadnessorwine

If people are defending her and claiming she isn’t guilty then I think it’s ok to say - would you allow her to care for your child?

Do you know something though - Sally Clarke? I would have trusted her with my baby!

This to me suggests it did and that Myers received it as a result of the disclosure.

"On 9 December the defence set out a disclosure request setting out requests for material based upon the evidence and behaviour of Dr Evans and that is based upon not just material pre-trial but importantly the way his evidence has developed and been presented in the course of the trial. We have had some disclosures and we are grateful for those. We received some more this morning to which I shall make reference. There remain requests outstanding.

On 15 December, the defence were provided with a decision of Lord Justice Jackson in the Court of Appeal Civil Division relating to an application for permission to appeal in which a report by Dr Evans was submitted to the court as further evidence in support of the applicant's case. Your Lordship has that, of course, and I have put the references in the bundle. We have also received the report to which that related."

I think that the managers should have arranged an external review of this unit long before anyone suggested putting Lucy Letby off the ward.