To think our public transport system needs a complete overhaul?

[creatorofthecoastguard]

I’m currently on holiday in southern Europe, and on an intercity train.

So far I’ve encountered trams that are a flat rate of €1.70 a journey, buses that are €1.50 a journey, trains that are actually affordable (£9 for a 45 minute journey across the border!), it’s all been amazing. Every train has been clean, spacious, yes busy in places but only when it’s to be expected (going to popular destinations). The intercity train I’m on now isn’t oversold, isn’t rammed full of people, there’s enough luggage space.

It’s really eye opening to how poor our public transport actually is. Expensive, poorly maintained, and poor conditions.

AIBU to think it needs an overhaul, and soon? I know it wouldn’t be cheap, and that a lot of our issues stem from post-WW2 when we didn’t upgrade our risks compared to most of Europe, but it needs doing!

Cars ain't cheap either

The issue with double deckers in the UK is more the tunnels than the tracks. They're not high enough.

@Parky04 of course a walk up on the day fare is going to be expensive - try the same with a short haul flight. They are deliberately pricing it high as they want people to book in advance on longer distance lines.

I get trains a lot in France and while the TGVs are generally great as noted up thread rural and regional trains can be a disaster - delayed, overcrowded, dirty, insane timetables.

Whilst I agree, Beeching wasn't the cause, he was the scapegoat, simply doing what the politicians instructed him to do. Any other person appointed to that position would have done virtually the same.

Agree! The branch line from Roscoff- a passenger ferry port!- to Morlaix has been closed for years, with no date for reopening last time I looked.

And walk up mid distance fares (Chartres- Paris and Vannes- Nantes are the couple I attempted) can be even more expensive than in Britain if you're going for a day trip, because they don't have cheap day returns and- if I recall correctly- no walk up child fares.

I think we can ask the government for more money given THEY (including at a more local level councils) are the ones trying to get people to use public transport!

My local council are trying the stick before carrot approach - making city centre parking prohibitively expensive to discourage people from doing so - which would be fine if there was any reasonable alternative. There are about 8 train stations in the west and north of the city, 1 in the south and 0 to the east where I live - despite being right at the city boundaries to the point 5 metres to the right I'd be in the neighbouring county, the nearest station to me IS the city centre one!

I would happily use public transport if there was any to use!

Good point. The war on motorists to get them out of the cars works in some places, but doesn't work in others. Yet councils seem to make no reference to that when they "plan" their town centre improvements, hence why so many town centres have died following "traffic calming", pedestrianisations, one way systems, etc. Just because banning traffic from city centre A has worked well (because of good public transport and other localised factors), it doesn't mean it will work in city centre B. Council officials don't seem to take that into account.

In our closest small city, they've put in a park and ride to the East of the city. Trouble is, no one lives at that end. Everyone lives North, West and South, so they'd have to drive through the city to get to the PNR car park. Utter stupidity. As a result, the buses are usually either empty or only have a couple of people on board, i.e. the very few people who live at that end. Meanwhile, the city centre is grid locked because of an insane one way system around loads of access only, one way (wrong way to be useful) and pedestrianised streets, so all the drivers shun the city centre and go to the out of town supermarkets and retail parks instead. The council's answer is to make even more streets pedestrianised and unbelievably to actually make parts of the one way system access only and for buses only, too!

The really isn’t any “war on motorists” & it was highly disappointing for James Cleverly to resurrect that phrase earlier this week. Roads get the vast majority of the transport budget & drivers get plenty of perks such as free parking.

It’s hard to judge schemes without knowing a city but what you are describing does sound like bad planning - if councils give planning permission to retail parks then inevitably they are going to attract custom away from the city centre. That said, reopening streets probably wouldn’t decrease the congestion as making it easier to drive just encourages more people to drive.

It’s difficult for councils as they will have reasons to reduce traffic in certain places (eg air pollution hotspots) so will have to take action on that - but without any control over public transport they don’t have the power to offer any “carrots”.

Some lines have been reopened - the proposed extension to the Tyne & Wear Metro will be on a disused line.

I would like to see more closed lines being opened up as cycling (& walking) routes. Partly because this is useful in helping people travel but also as it keeps the line intact for reinstating rail.

But the cost of that would be immense. Because private investors in every regulated sector will worry the same may happen to them, and charge a much bigger risk premium for doing anything that involves the UK government.

That then comes back to taxpayers. Or the state finds it has to nationalise everything because private capital won’t invest. We can’t borrow too much more at the moment, so that means either big tax rises or big spending cuts to pay for it all.

This is why Burnham has softened his stance on water nationalisation.

@Benvenuto Free parking? Only at a supermarket. It might be 1/2 hour free in some places but that means you won’t do much or spend much money. Most towns and cities, you pay.

We bought tickets to travel from Shrewsbury to Barmouth in August. It originated in Birmingham and had 2 (2!!!!!) carriages which were both full to bursting when it arrived in Shrewsbury.

We got on, there were no seats available and a line of people standing in the aisles-the vestibules were choc a bloc too. It was simply not safe so we decided to get off, along with several other people.
Complained to station staff who said they’d had the same issue all summer. Trains bound for the Welsh coast in August with only 2 carriages. They even offered to pay for a taxi for us to go to Barmouth! Very kind of them but we declined!

We emailed Transport for Wales outlining the situation and asking for a refund. 3 weeks later and we’ve heard nothing. Bloody third world transport!

Free parking is pretty rare in city centres these days, hence why so many are dying. It’s why drivers shun the town centres and go to out of town supermarkets and retail parks instead. Funny that towns which offer free parking are a lot busier and are less likely to die.

The train network is an absolute disgrace. I had to get a train to Manchester airport to go on holiday. On the train up it arrived 10 minutes late so we only had 3 minutes to make our change and had to rush from one platform to another only just getting on to the second train. A lady with a push chair missed making the connection. On the way back the train was again late this time 19 minutes. Then when I got to change station the lift was broken and there was a late platform change so after going to one platform we all had to go back to another platform. I got home feeling totally frazzled after pulling cases around platforms and up and down stairs. It just reminded me why I usually drive.

Pretty typical for Transport for Wales. I should know, I used to work for the incompetent idiots.

City centre (& other) parking costs a lot to operate - potentially more in future as older multi-storeys may not be able to support the weight of heavier modern cars (the Institute of Structural Engineers has issued a warning about this). It’s not unreasonable to expect drivers to contribute towards this - just as we expect people to pay fares on public transport.

The problem re city centres are threefold - firstly if there is a out-of-town shopping centre nearby that has lower costs for both businesses (rents) & shoppers, then that is going to attract people away from the city centre because shops will locate there rather than in the centre. It’s poor planning & it causes its own problems (near me it’s traffic jams in the suburban housing estate next to the shops). Then there’s the shop & leisure offer & how nice the city centre is to attract customers - my local city centre does well on both so despite many predictions it isn’t declining. Then there’s how easy it is to get to buy walking, cycling & public transport - my centre is OK for PT but could easily increase customers via walking & cycling by making it a bit nicer & safer to use these forms of transport. There’s plenty of people who could walk / cycle in if it was more pleasant.

Unfortunately both in the centre & in suburban shops there’s a generally a failure to see cyclists in particular as “real” customers so as well as a lack of routes there’s a lack of cycle racks. It’s annoying - I can carry more by bike than in a rucksack & I’m not going to drive for a mile or two unless I need to buy something too heavy for my bike - but it’s also poor business sense. I can think of a couple of shopping areas that have improved things for walkers & cyclists & they are flourishing.

The narrative that free parking & easy access is essential for shopping centres is a really entrenched one, but it isn’t one backed up by traffic research - Waltham Forest being one of the most famous examples. Given the cuts to local authority services over the last decade, there’s for me a question about why out-of-town centres are allowed to keep their free parking when so many services have been reduced & cut. There’s definitely an argument for a small fee to help fund pothole filling.

Well cyclists don’t buy anything! Just get a coffee maybe? Definitely not doing a big shop!

I think local transport is really good where I am, but intercity trains are expensive, even if you look in advance and are eligible for a railcard. I travel by train a lot. We don’t have a car. They are generally reliable, though. And there’s compensation if you are delayed.

@Benvenuto It depends who owns the car park! They are not all council owned and run. Often out of town shopping ads privately owned and they can do what they want. The other issue is too much retail! Conversion to residential would be better. Many councils hate cars, have poorly planned shopping areas and in general too many poor people. They get the shops they might actually use which the rest of us don’t like ! I’ve not shopped in my local town for 20 years. Every aspect of it is horrible. It used to be a quite nice market town but now - just awful. Even a recent development of a £50 million theatre has had the adjacent multi story car park built right next to the canal. No nice landscaping or canal walks for us! So I avoid it.

Sorry a bit off topic but I’ve no public transport to get there either. Most villages have no late bus so it’s drive to the theatre or don’t go.

Our everything needs a complete overhaul.

That's an interesting post. I usually walk to my local city centre (Glasgow) as it's only 3 miles. I had to drive to an out of town shopping centre a couple of times recently and the traffic getting in and out was horrific. I was surprised that people tolerate that, rather than jumping on a train into town. I wonder if a parking levy would make a difference. Drivers would be up in arms though, people are fiercely wedded to their right to use cars and these out of town centres are just businesses providing what the public want.

Glasgow is actually adding a lot of cycle lanes and the venom and hatred towards cyclists on social media is wild. As is the length of time it takes to build the lanes. Literal years to convert a lane of a dual carriageway to a cycle lane.

Our city centre is reasonably well served by trains and the prices are ok. The problems begin when you need to travel anywhere else. The radial system means having to go into the city and back out for almost every journey. Relatively infrequent services mean long waits, so you often have almost a half hour wait to connect two 10 minute journeys. The barrier system at each platform makes short timed connections impossible. The south of the city is served by one station and the north and Edinburgh by another, and the only way between them is to walk through the city centre. Lack of ticketing integration makes it too expensive to switch to bus or underground for part of the journey. More trains, more lines and cheaper trains would be wonderful but there are a lot of things that could be fixed with less investment.

Those countries no doubt put in a lot more subsidy?

How do you feel about the amount of tax you pay currently?

We also suffer in the UK from having invented a lot of modern transit systems. As a result we have got some very expensive problems to solve such as bridges only high enough for single decker trains, because double decker ones didn't exist when the bridges were built.

Charging for parking is the easiest way to manage demand. Motorists always amuse me - there isn't enough parking and you have to pay. What do you think would happen in prime city centre areas or smaller spaces if there weren't charges?

Outside of large towns/cities, public transport is diabolical.

I live in a small town in a predominantly rural county in the SE. To get to a hospital appointment involves either 3 buses or two buses and a train. There is a direct bus to one of the hospitals, but it only runs twice a day, so the chances of it coinciding with your appointment are slim. It's 2 buses or bus + train to the nearest town big enough to have an M&S or shops that sell such basic things as shoes and kids' clothes.

And if you want to use the train to commute to London, the first bus to the station isn't until 8.45am and the last one back is at 5.45, so it's a bloody long walk or pay £8 pd day to park at the station, unless you have a partner who can ferry you back and forth. When I first moved here, the buses ran from 7am to 7pm, so were well used by commuters.

One thing that wasn't very sexy but seems to have worked well is the London Superloop buses, which seem to be a lot more evidence based than some other public transport - they actually fill gaps.