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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask why French high streets seem to thrive?

100 replies

Hoppity80 · Yesterday 20:11

I realise this is probably a very naive question but I have just come back from a hol in France. We visited a mix of touristy and some very non touristy towns - in all of them the high street was thriving.

Lots of independent shops, alongside chains and cafes busy streets. There were also big out of town hypermarches too but they didn’t seem obviously to impact the town centres. Hardly any of the vape shop, nail bars and boarded up charity shops in our town centres.

My question is what are the French doing to achieve this that we are not? Are there tax incentives of some kind, if so, how does
the French gov afford it and why couldn’t we adopt at least some of this model for the UK?

OP posts:
Raraskirtsagogo · Yesterday 23:42

pondplants · Yesterday 23:21

This reminds me so much of the time I spent living and travelling in France 😂 I remember once I was travelling to an airport by train on a Sunday and I was practically in tears because I couldn’t find ANYWHERE open for food. I had to do an hour round trip to a carrefour that was open for a couple of hours - and that was in a city! If you are used to UK convenience France is a big culture shock I think, it’s not bad but I certainly found it a lot more hassle to do certain stuff that is easy in the UK. Opening a bank account - omg that was like a week’s worth of effort.

I get why people complain about the UK because it’s easy to whinge about somewhere you take for granted but, much as I love visiting France, living there gave me a new appreciation for the UK.

That doesn't resonate with me. We have 2 supermarkets (in a town of under 3k people) and both supermarkets are open for 4 hours on Sunday. They also open on almost all bank holidays. Although it's irritating if you want something on a Sunday afternoon, I try to think about the staff who can at least spent some guaranteed time with their families every weekend.

The bakeries in the nearest larger town (population 20k) are open all day on Sundays, some from 06.30 - 20.00.

Bank accounts can be opened online in a few minutes too.

Needmorelego · Yesterday 23:55

MrsKeats · Yesterday 23:33

Partly because the French like to buy quality products that are in season so don’t buy rubbish from bigger shops that are out of town like the British do. Farm foods would not be popular.

I googled what supermarket chains they have in France (out of curiosity).
There's a discount one called Netto that has about 300 branches.
Looking at their website it looks similar to retailer like Farm Foods.

MrsKeats · Yesterday 23:58

Needmorelego · Yesterday 23:55

I googled what supermarket chains they have in France (out of curiosity).
There's a discount one called Netto that has about 300 branches.
Looking at their website it looks similar to retailer like Farm Foods.

Yes they have Netto but lots of people still like to shop in the traditional way (at small shops and markets etc). I lived in Italy for a long time and it’s quite similar (we were near the border with France)

Needmorelego · Today 00:04

MrsKeats · Yesterday 23:58

Yes they have Netto but lots of people still like to shop in the traditional way (at small shops and markets etc). I lived in Italy for a long time and it’s quite similar (we were near the border with France)

"Lots of people" doesn't mean everyone though.
Netto is just one of several supermarket chains. They wouldn't exist is everyone was buying from a traditional market or independent store.
So "the French" (as you put it) obviously aren't all shopping that way.

Hoppity80 · Today 00:12

Just to mention my post was about towns and not villages. I am sure it is challenging for businesses in France but the town centres themselves - in some quite normal areas - seem to have lots of businesses that are not vape shops, Turkish barbers or charity shops.
One thing we definitely do better though - bar opening hours - is public toilets
The public toilets I visited, when I could find one, were off the scale levels of disgusting, far beyond even the grimmest loos I’ve encountered in the UK.

OP posts:
Crikeyalmighty · Today 00:13

MandemChickenShop · Yesterday 20:15

no Amazon in France

Absolutely not true - I know as we sell on Amazon.fr

Crikeyalmighty · Today 00:17

RocketLollyPolly · Yesterday 20:37

I’ve been on lots of holidays in France and haven’t noticed the busy high streets except for in large towns and cities. Throughout villages and any more rural areas there seems to be nothing at all except pharmacies and bread shops.

I agree on this - and lots of places that are always shut .

Crikeyalmighty · Today 00:21

Hoppity80 · Today 00:12

Just to mention my post was about towns and not villages. I am sure it is challenging for businesses in France but the town centres themselves - in some quite normal areas - seem to have lots of businesses that are not vape shops, Turkish barbers or charity shops.
One thing we definitely do better though - bar opening hours - is public toilets
The public toilets I visited, when I could find one, were off the scale levels of disgusting, far beyond even the grimmest loos I’ve encountered in the UK.

The big difference is many shop differently, same with Germans - they still like individual butchers, fishmongers, markets etc - far more freehold building owners due to much cheaper property , completely different systems for costs for businesses in terms of rent and rates- Far more big property landlords here -same was true when we lived in Copenhagen

Yellowshirt · Today 00:24

Working class people have no money. High taxes and cost of living is absolutely destroying people.

Migration over the last 10 years has also flooded the country but it means local culture is changing dramatically.

Take pubs for example. Its generally a British culture. Eastern Europeans tend to drink at home. Other cultures like Indian and Pakistani don't generally socialise with British people.
The country has totally changed.

Goldenbear · Today 00:32

TheVeryAngryBanana · Yesterday 20:24

Of course there's online shopping in France, what an idiot!

In Paris it's a reason that Brits would hate. Apartements are small with limited storage so you buy small packets and shop frequently on foot. Plus why would anyone eat stale food which means you shop multiple times per week and bread at least every day, often twice per day.

This only works in a 15 minutes city which is the work of the devil according to mumsnet and might mean you can't drive a giant car everywhere.

Edited

Do you honestly think that people in the UK don't live in areas where this is not all available to them within 15 mins and that we all drive 4x4s!

Dorisbonson · Today 00:37

anniegun · Yesterday 20:41

French businesses are more highly taxed than in the UK. VAT thresholds are lower and empoyment taxes are far higher

This is true but they also have cheaper electricity, cheaper housing, build new roads (we don't build roads as apparently more roads means more cars - we ignore the economic benefits of roads).

They build infrastructure more quickly and more cheaply than here eg trams are half the price per Km to build in France than UK. Motorways and High speed rail in France are a third the cost per Km compared to building in the UK. Paris Charles De Gaulle Airport has 4 runways and 32km2 space compared to 2 runways at Heathrow and 12km2 space.

Shatenoeuf · Today 00:48

Notwithstanding the cultural preference for buying fresh local food, France has a lower population density than the uk - 120 people per square kilometre vs over 280 in the UK. This tends to mean property & land costs are much lower. France also produces a much higher proportion of its own food, so food is cheaper. It also has lots of nuclear power stations so electricity is half the cost of here. Public transport is more subsidised - taxes are higher generally in france.

These lower living costs mean:

  • people can be employed to work in retail on low wages and afford a home/food/utilities.
  • rents for shops etc are lower than the uk.
  • crucially, consumers have enough
disposable income to buy from local businesses rather than desperately getting everything off Temu or Shein because its all they can afford.

This doesnt mean its perfect. You will likely have visited nicer towns/villages (you dont typically holiday in the equivalent of clacton, jaywick or burnley). Spend a day in Marlow or Windsor, or visit smart stockbroker belt villages like the Horsleys in Surrey, & you'll find plenty of thriving shops, cafes, butchers etc.

KlippityKloppity · Today 00:51

WTF am I reading 😂
I ran a business in france fir a decade. Amazon is common currency. You're taxed to fuck, way more than in the UK. High streets survive because theres a cultural drive to actually use them and highly value "artisanal" products/ produce

KlippityKloppity · Today 00:54

Example: a guy in the uk might buy a sourdough loaf as a once a week act of wankery.
A guy in france will just buy a baguette as par for the course on his way home every day.
Thats just one shop.

Shatenoeuf · Today 00:55

Hoppity80 · Yesterday 21:49

Im sure that’s true hut it’s not just grocers and bakers doing well - there are loads of nice shops quite often. British people love independent shops, so I think behaviour only goes someway to explain the difference. There
must be tax incentives too.

France has higher taxes and more bureacracy, not less.

PollyBell · Today 01:01

Because people in France spend more on quality not cheap crap is all I can think of

CarrieOakie · Today 01:09

pondplants · Yesterday 23:21

This reminds me so much of the time I spent living and travelling in France 😂 I remember once I was travelling to an airport by train on a Sunday and I was practically in tears because I couldn’t find ANYWHERE open for food. I had to do an hour round trip to a carrefour that was open for a couple of hours - and that was in a city! If you are used to UK convenience France is a big culture shock I think, it’s not bad but I certainly found it a lot more hassle to do certain stuff that is easy in the UK. Opening a bank account - omg that was like a week’s worth of effort.

I get why people complain about the UK because it’s easy to whinge about somewhere you take for granted but, much as I love visiting France, living there gave me a new appreciation for the UK.

I have learnt to get food for Sundays, eating in a buffalo grill in France on a Sunday night was a low point I don’t want to ever repeat

CarrieOakie · Today 01:14

France also produces a much higher proportion of its own food, so food is cheaper.

I found grocery shop more expensive than uk grocery shopping, especially the vegetables and fruit. Good quality in supermarkets but more expensive

DeftGoldHedgehog · Today 01:23

anniegun · Yesterday 20:37

the french prefer local shops and fresh ingredients. Brits prefer supermarkets

Ha, have you ever been to a French supermarket? More ready meals than you can shake a stick at.

What I noticed was that French food shops (not supermarkets) are actually open later in the evening but shut for a period in the daytime.

Whereas in the UK when individual butchers and greengrocers existed they were only open during the time most of their potential customers were at work. Duh!

I used to live in a prime commuter belt area, 15 minutes walk from the station and the dry cleaners only opened during my office hours so I couldn't use them for my suits.

Ohdearnotthisagain · Today 01:32

Similar problems in France. We just got back from two weeks there and saw multiple small towns where the pharmacy and boulingerie (spelling!) were the only things open. There’s an intermache on the outskirts of most towns and villages. The more well known towns annd villages are thriving but it’s mainly cafes and restaurants not butchers etc.

BadLad · Today 01:35

Needmorelego · Yesterday 23:55

I googled what supermarket chains they have in France (out of curiosity).
There's a discount one called Netto that has about 300 branches.
Looking at their website it looks similar to retailer like Farm Foods.

Netto used to be in the UK too.

Asking for the nearest supermarket in Leeds once, I was directed to Netto. I’d never heard of it before.

It was horrible inside.

tyrsta · Today 01:43

paomara · Yesterday 20:30

I reckon it's the pharmacies that bring the shoppers in to the high street. They are everywhere, the French must either be hypochondriac or get lots of medical and beauty stuff for free or reduced. 😊

The French also have no hang ups about using their colourful shopping carts, so many don't bother with a car, and the weekly markets, when they are over after a few hours bring lots of people into the streets afterwards also.

Great quality of life all round, but I don't live there, so the reality may be very different!

Are you serious? Have been to France 20+ times and have yet to need a pharmacist.

My dad lives in France, he had a stroke. So he is a hypochondriac?

Howmanycatsistoomany · Today 02:09

MandemChickenShop · Yesterday 20:59

might be loads of shops but none of the fuckers are open on a Sunday!

Edited

And that's one of the best things about living in France!

Also, we do have Amazon 😂

tyrsta · Today 02:21

About 20 years ago I was about 21 years old. I went to visit my dad who lived on the Gambetta in Nice. We went for a drink one evening to a, what looked like an African bar. The men stopped me on the way in because I had a decorative cross around my neck.

AmnesiacsDream · Today 03:00

France has a High Street problem just like the UK. They have about the same percentage of empty stores and many villages have lost their local shops and services. Also hypermarkets on the outskirts of towns have had a negative impact on local high streets. But the French only do about half as much shopping online, they have a much higher preference for in person shopping and it is common to buy some foods (as PPs have mentioned) fresh a few times a week.

More importantly, they have managed to protect independent stores in a way the UK hasn't. In particular, they haven't been taken over by chains because labour laws really favour owner operators and towns can have a right of first refusal on retail locations for sale and buy them up in order to lease at affordable rates to owner operators and to control the mix of retail on the high street.

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