To think that a comfortable middle class existence is basically unattainable for the vast majority of people.

[joelm1776]

I was thinking today about how much someone would actually need to earn per year in order to have a traditionally financially comfortable middle class existence. This, to me, means having a family one parent being able to look after the kids, being financially secure and having some pleasures in one's life on a regular basis but not necessarily any extravagant pleasures ie. not having multiple holidays a year, or luxury items or fine dining meals out. I know these things are fairly subjective, but I would like to think that my judgements here are quite middle of the road. I'll show you my working:

2 parents and 2 child household

1. £17,000 per year in mortgage payments for a 3 bedroom house (average price of a 3 bedroom house in the UK is about £275,0000)
2. £8,300 per year in supermarket shopping
3. £5,500 rough estimate for running 2 cars per year (one for commuting one for short journeys) including fuel, tax, MOT, insurance and maintenance.
4. £5,000 utilities, internet and council tax for 3 bedroom house
5. £1,000 per year on clothing (£20 per person per month)
6. £2,500 repairs and long term replacement fund for house.
7. £2,000 student debt
8. £6,000 one family meal out at a mid-range restaurant per week
9. £1400 2 night out for drinks with friends per month for each parent.
10. £3,000 one week family holiday to mainland European destination per year.
11. £1,500 pocket money for kids
12. £1,200 sports clubs and gyms memberships
13. £1,500 general household items excluding clothing and food
14. £2250 large purchase fund (e.g two cars lasting 15 years each, 4 smartphones lasting 5 years each etc)
15. £2,000 saved for other contingencies

Total = £60150 net + 7.5% saved as a pension = aprox £64650
Total gross = £94000

so basically you need to earn £100K even if you don't live in London, and only the top 5% of uk earners earn around this amount and most of those people probably work in London.

I know the the mortgage figure ignores the fact that people often have equity from other properties, but that makes the calculation a bit too complex

Oh and I wouldn’t say it feels like neither a necessity nor a luxury to have a parent at home. I do shift work 3x a week and DH mostly wfh so always someone around. I worked hard to get where I am, I do not fancy being a SAHM.

Me neither. £30k a year would just about be a good graduate salary. £15k a year is starting to become just above minimum wage, and nobody would afford all of that comfortably 😳 As for buying a property for £55k in 2017...! My shared ownership flat in 2017 was a 25% share of £175k property, and therefore this is what i would presume this poster meant. A 55k doee-upper property maybe, or something in a poorer area.

Completely agree. We’re a service economy rather than a growth and manufacturing economy. It’s all based on a precarious pyramid of selling goods and services to other people. Who themselves probably work in a goods and services sector. Obviously not everyone but most. So people are limited in what they can afford to pay, which keeps wages down. It’s like we are circulating money.

My parents were upper middle class. We had a large 6 bed house. My mother did not work until we were 11 upwards and we all went to private school.

Between DH and I we own a 4 bed house and have two cars and kids in private school and yes it was upwards of £100K joint income.

For our retirement with mortgage paid off we still need £40 K plus to cover all outgoings and holidays which we fortunately have over this and cash savings.

It would be good to know your figures because I understood 'middle class' is more than 55% of the population at the last census when you add together AB and C1.

OP I think many people grossly overestimate the lifestyles of relatively high earners. It's probably a combination of jealousy and self projection and exposure to garbage from social media. Truth is that the vast majority of high earners (100K-200K) have very unspectacular lives. It's exactly like what you described. Without having to scrimp and save, they can afford to live in a nice normal house, run two cars, pay all bills, buy organic food, go on holiday and generally not worry about money.

The lives that people assume wealthy people lead are only reality for the top 0.1% of people. The income disparity within the final 10% and 5% is much wider than the lower 90%. So the lifestyle of someone on the 90th percentile is much closer to an average wage than someone on the 97th percentile. In absolute numbers, it's like comparing 30K to 100K, or 100K to 1million. There's a massive, massive difference there.

I think there is a confusion in the OP’s question which assumes money with being middle class.
It is not the same thing.
There are very rich working class people. Who often have no interest whatsoever in being middle class.
And middle class people who are comparatively poverty stricken. But with the best will in the world will never be working class either.

The reduction in the quality of life of the middle class has gradually been on decline, at the same time there has been an increase in the wealth of millionaires and billionaires. Yet so many middle class people still strongly oppose wealth tax. They're supporting the people whose greed is making them poorer.

If you’ve only ever earned under 10k as a household with children then you've alway been considerably topped up by state benefits so it’s hardly a comparison.

This!

And purchasing in cash from a 10k salary.
Hmm

Just did. Center Parcs in Europe is far less than that even with crossing and petrol (middle class example of a holiday).

The thread is really interesting.
Mumsnet at it's best. Thank you OP.

I don’t follow how this adds up. Less than £10k Pa and could afford mortgage, bills, kids etc. That’s a very part time salary on minim wage. 40 hour a week minimum wage is £24k pa.

I assumed this was 80s/90s and you are now retired and mortgage free and kids grown up and living off state pension etc. However, you say you purchased in 2017?

This simply doesn’t add up on today’s rates that you would only have £10k pa and afford a family - however frugal!

I don’t follow how this adds up. Less than £10k Pa and could afford mortgage, bills, kids etc. That’s a very part time salary on minim wage. 40 hour a week minimum wage is £24k pa.
I assumed this was 80s/90s and you are now retired and mortgage free and kids grown up and living off state pension etc. However, you say you purchased in 2017?
This simply doesn’t add up on today’s rates that you would only have £10k pa and afford a family - however frugal!

Almost every middle class family I knew growing up in the 70s and 80s had both parents working. Most mums worked at least part time once the kids were in school. Most were full time when their Dc were teens. It was the previous generation, i.e. parents in the 50s who were more likely to have one SaHP.

Restaurants were not a weekly treat when I was a kid, nor were they for mine,

Yeah, this. I saw a thread the other day where suddenly wrote that a family on 100k could comfortably afford to send their children to private school. Not where I live (London, bordering Essex).. A year’s tuition at an unspectacular private school here is about £32k.

People also have a shockingly poor understanding of the tax system. They will confidently state that £100k pa = over £8k a month…

Our household income is about £170k. We have one run of the mill car, eat out once every couple of months (generally find the quality of food is quite poor in restaurants nowadays so can’t be bothered) and take a few breaks/holidays a year but all fairly standard ones that cost £2k - £5k. I personally consider myself working class but most middle class families I know live modest lives. The wealthiest person I know (not super rich but wealthy to me) shops in Aldi.

I remember when i was teenager ( years ago, im ancient) that on my Saturday job wages I could do things like go out to cafes or pub with friends, buy clothes , go to see films , pay bus fare, buy little trinkets at the local market etc etc. If I had a Saturday job now, I'd probably be lucky if I could buy a cup of tea and a cake before I'd spent my entire pay packet.

Me neither - googled where could you buy a 4 bed for 55k in the UK in 2017- and the stats and figures indicated that only in a deeply depressed parts of the NE were properties sold at that price, largely in auction, needing rewiring/renovation etc. Even if by some miracle that happened once - it absolutely not the norm. I also don’t believe you can live on £10-15k a year today unless you are also raking it in in UC.

Really not helpful to the discussion here.

Its not “nitpicking” to point out that many of the OP’s basic requirements for MC life would have been considered occasional luxuries for previous generations of MC families.

I did not grow up MC, my MC school friends from families who were comfortably MC at the time did not live the kind of lifestyle the OP describes. They were much more modest in their expectations and truly long term SAHMs were very rare. Childcare was a massive cost to previous generations, its not new. Most women had some work juggling around childcare responsibilities but had very little choice as sacking for pregnancy was commonplace.

It’s confusing calling it “middle class”. Do you mean above average income / top 20% of earners ?

1. You are confusing class with income.
2. A camping holiday is very much a middle class holiday!
3. Middle class women tend to be educated and want a career, so are less likely to have only one earner.

Don't spend money unnecessarily & get the mortgage overpaid & finished early.
Can't do much about buying food but summer helps, no expensive cuts of meat. Except mince - ye Gods, when did THAT get to be an expensive 'cut'?
I don't have cars. Public transport.
Can't do much about utilities. Rip off.
Clothes bought in sales. Cheaper than even charity shops these days.
Repairs - I bought a new (20 yrs now) house. Few repairs & well insulated.
No student debt. (Doesn't help you, I know..)
Ouch, eating out.. cut it down to once per month instead of weekly.
Have friends round instead of going out.
Less than £100 for a Haven caravan for 5 days in late Spring.
Kids can earn money by helping out.
Sports / gyms - walk / run / climb a tree, wild swim..
I don't spend anywhere near £1,500 a year on household goods..
No large purchases like cars or smartphones - I have an old dumb phone!
Savings, I have a little transferred from current account to savings every month, so I don't miss it.
I'm happy with all the above!

The thing is once you have two earners you end up needing to pay for time saving things - or in my case a FT working single parent. I spend a fair bit on cleaners / eating out and other conveniences, but I have a demanding (& well paid) job so it feels like a necessity. Would love to cook from scratch each day but it's not possible. Plus family live abroad so spend a lot of flights and holidays

Its not “nitpicking” to point out that many of the OP’s basic requirements for MC life would have been considered occasional luxuries for previous generations of MC families

But life does progress & move on so having the internet isn’t a luxury now just because we grew up without it.