Dependent sibling and elderly parents. What what happens when parents are gone?

[Endofanerainourtime]

I’m interested to hear from anyone who has been in a similar situation.
My sister is 53 and has lived with my parents for many years. They’re both in their 80s and provide a lot of practical and financial support. She has had a very chaotic life, including a long history of addiction and difficulty keeping stable employment. She’s currently off work with stress following yet another dispute with her employer.
There have also been incidents of violence towards my parents in the past when she was using drugs, and more recently she had a huge outburst towards them which the neighbours heard.
My parents say they want her to become independent and move out, but there always seems to be a reason why now isn’t the right time. I keep saying that I think it would be better for her to learn to live independently while they’re still around to support her, rather than being forced into it when they’re no longer here.
They say they don’t expect me to take responsibility for her, but I worry that when the time comes I’ll feel like I have no choice. I don’t want her living with me or to become responsible for supporting her, but I know I’d feel guilty if she had nowhere to go.
I’d really like to hear from anyone whose sibling was dependent on their parents and then had to manage independently after their parents died or could no longer support them.
How did it work out? Did your sibling manage? Did you end up having to step in? And is there anything you wish you’d done differently while your parents were still alive?

@Endofanerainourtime what is it that she can't do
You might find she can do it when there's no one else to do it

The problem is this is all far too late. They are caught in a cycle they are not willing to break. I am sorry to be harsh but once your parents pass on, she will squat in that house until her own death unless you force her out.

Tbh, I'm not sure this is a problem you can solve. So I'd focus on deciding what your reaction will be and what you will/won't do when this all falls apart.

I would be tempted to have one last conversation with your parents about this, and I would actually frame it as such when you speak to them. Then close the book, as you have done everything you can.

Ask them what they think will happen to your sister when they pass away? Do they think she could live independently? Give them any practical suggestions you have and tell them you will help with any admin etc to make it happen. Make it clear that you taking over from them is not a solution.

I don't think you should feel any guilt or obligation. This is a problem of your parents' making, as much as your sister's. They're being selfish. Even though it's damaging your sister, it's easier for them to keep things as they are, because they won't be here to see the fallout.

This is exactly it. By ignoring what’s going on they won’t have to face the fallout when they’re gone. It’s completely selfish of them but at the same time I can see why they’re doing it as every other times she has lived on her own she’s ended up back on drugs and mixed up with the dregs of society.
I will definitely try to have the conversation again though.

Not exactly what you asked but really important to be considered now.

If they do not want her to live in the house once they pass they need to make that crystal clear in their will and add a clause that states that it must be sold within X amount of time after their death. I hate solicitors but if I were them I'd also make a solicitors firm the executor of my estate otherwise this could be a giant mess when they pass.

Thank you for the advice. The problem is how do I bring all this up without sounding money obsessed and grabby? I have a lovely life - really happy with my husband, beautiful house and great kids. We’ve obviously worked hard for it but I feel bad mentioning anything about inheritance to my parents despite their house being worth at least £750,000. But I do agree this is a massive mess waiting to happen.

I think say just what you have said. It’s up to them what they put in will but they need to be crystal clear otherwise you are leaving a huge mess which will be stressful for those left behind and potentially waste money eg if the executor needs to take legal action to evict her.

@Endofanerainourtime bring it up from your sister's perspective

• you don't want her to become homeless in the event that either parent needs care (when a house is required to be sold for care costs
• you think sister won't be able to cope with the responsibility of having a house, and if she were living in it with no deadline she wouldn't be eligible for any support services, because she'd be deemed to have an asset even though she has no spare money

-your sister could be a target for individuals from her drug lifestyle if she is known to have a 'free house'

• you don't think it would be good for your sister to have the pressure of 'buying you out' as she would have to do if you both have a share
• you don't think it would be easy for your sister to make decisions/deal with solicitors, better for it to all be instructed in advance

Just some ideas, but try to help them see that without taking some action it would lead to a really difficult dynamic for the two of you, which is to be avoided especially if they want you to be some moral support for your sister in future.

You need to step way way way back now. Nothing is going to change with your parents already in their eighties. Until it does. That thing will be a health crisis. Probably in your parents due to age. I would continue to visit to keep the connection with your parents but when the inevitable house of cards starts to wobble, remain steadfast with your boundaries. Do not, no matter how tempting, be the fixer when this happens. Take a stance of a distant, curious bystander. When your parents pass, if the house is left 50/50 force the sale.

Don’t bring up. This opens a can of worms. This is inserting yourself into their mess, and frames you as the person responsible for mopping up the mess in the future. You go about your normal life, when it goes badly wrong, which everyone knows it will, you don’t get involved. It’s hugely unfair of all of them to expect you to have to sort their mess out. You didn’t cause it. You can’t control it. You can’t change it. Detach.

This is exactly what my mum did with sibling. I stopped pushing it as I knew mum would never throw him out. There is no easy answer but be prepared to be very hard hearted when they die or to be shafted out of any share of your inheritance.
Actually have you raised with parents what would happen if their house had yo be sold to cover care costs ?

In my experience no chance!

This is absolutely correct. My parents were advised by their solicitor to leave everything to their children to be divided equally as this would be fairest. This they did but I suspect they hoped me and my other sibling would "take care" of dependent sibling. I think we'd have been guilt tripped into doing so but it would have caused enormous resentment. Fortunately in some respects the scenario didn't arise for which I'm grateful as I wouldn't have wanted to end up resenting a sibling who we also loved. Families are complex.

Hello, firstly, what a pickle! But one many families face. I'm just going to concentrate on my major piece of advice - persuade your parents to enrol at a carers centre. Then enrol yourself at the same carers centre in your own right.
They can give emotional support, coping strategies, practical advice. All equally important. Info on wills is vital, planning for what happens if your parents become ill, power of attorney for your parents, but also exploring mental health and addiction support and supported accommodation, for your sister now, rather than only when it becomes a problem in the future.
The scenarios don't bear thinking about, one of your parents becomes ill, or both do, care would need to be provided for them, how will your sister cope with less support?

Carers centres can help your parents focus on practicalities, future planning and how mental health and addiction support can be good FOR HER, not just them. The same info would be really good for you to be able to talk to them and concentrate on the practical issues, leaving emotion off the table. And also emotional support - getting it all out is very therapeutic! Apologies I have written a whole book here 😁
Best of luck!

She is assuming that if she stays put she will become de-facto owner of your parents house when they die, as you will not evict her. She may have a half-baked plan to then take in lodgers to keep an income stream. There's no benefit to her for moving out so she won't unless she is forced to.

Does she actually have any diagnosis or identified health issue that might make her the problem of adult social care rather than your problem?

I understand why you're suggesting this, but it could leave the OP with a decision in future of either giving up all her rights to what could be a frankly life changing amount of inheritance, or spending a lot of time, stress and tens of thousands of pounds of legal costs to evict her sister from the joint property. That's what happened to my friend (whose brother lived with his parents in a large London house and expected to just stay in it)
I appreciate no one wants to appear grabby but I can't imagine many would want be prepared to walk away to 'keep the peace' in that scenario, and a few awkward conversations now could potentially avoid that happening.

Ive met lots of people in this situation. Your not being grabby wanting your parents to make a will it needs to be done.

A female friend of mine over 50 (no addictions or other disabilities) who works full time as a care assistant lived in a shared house with other women, she put herself on the council’s housing list & it did take 5 years for her to be offered a flat, but she was given a studio flat on a local estate.
This was only about 3 years ago, so it is possible to get a HA / council tenancy when you already have a place to live. I don’t know if there’s criteria that need to be filled, it may be area dependent.

But obviously the issue for your sister would be actually keeping her tenancy as many HA are quite strict about rent being paid on a regular basis.

One friend has schizophrenia, she was mid 30s & given a HA flat; unfortunately she was very vulnerable especially to predatory men; one ‘boyfriend’ stole a £10k inheritance from her; she was unable to keep up with her rent and had to move back in to her parents’ overcrowded 3 bed terrace.. which made her ill as she really did not get on with them. Sadly she does now often sleep with men for money (and affection).. and still lives ‘at home’ in variable health.

So although it would be great if your sister had a flat to live in independently (either bought or a HA tenancy) - is she actually capable of that, given her addiction issues? She would be extremely vulnerable.

Another friend of mine, who has died aged 54, had schizoaffective disorder & developed addiction issues when she fell victim to cuckooing.

Maybe you could contact adult social services for advice regarding your sister. She may be suitable for some kind of supported living? Or at least she may be able to get the assistance of a support worker eg for addictions / mental health.
The problem is she will need to be keen to actually engage with these services. So you could have a chat with her and see what she is open to.
Good luck.

Our family have been in a similar situation. And left with the fallout when the last parent passed. In fact, it can get worse when one parent dies.

I would try and get them to make a will where they state that the house should be sold / split between you within a set time with your sister's money in Trust or similar to primarily to be used for a home for her.

Warn them if she left on her own in the property she is vulnerable to a cuckoo situation or similar. Also face the fact that if one parent dies, your sister can then apply pressure on the remaining one to change the will.

Do you have financial or medical power of attorney for them? I’d suggest getting that if not. It could be one way to introduce solicitors advice in this scenario.

My SIL lived with MIL and ignored her ill health and deliberately blocked access to the house. MIL finally left the house in an ambulance and died two weeks later. SIL and BIL stripped the house of everything.

Have they thought of downsizing and if they bought another place for her, keeping it in their name?

I have to admit I’m extremely annoyed with my parents for not doing more about the situation while they still can. I know they say they want to sort something out for her, but years keep passing and nothing actually changes. I try not to think about it too deeply because I know it would start to affect my relationship with my parents

Thing is, OP, they'll all have convinced themselves that you'll pick up the pieces when the time comes, and therefore won't feel any real need to move her into a better position before they go. I have friends who are doing the same with their eldest son, and that's with their younger one living abroad with no intention of returning

All you can do is to make it very clear you won't be the carer, then ask - and go on asking - what she's going to do about being supported

downsizing would be ideal in this situation pp.

It sounds to me that despite what your parents say, that your sister will inherit their house and live there.

And, rather cynically, I think she’ll take to doing the admin like a duck to water in that scenario.

Possession is nine tenths of the law, she’s lived there so long that your parents will feel she should have the house she’s familiar with, especially as you’re settled.

It’s not fair but it happens every day.

My mother is in exactly this position with her drug-addicted brother.
She has decided to stay out of it, and force the sale of the house once her mother passes. The will is 50/50 and my mum has power of attorney and is executor of the will. Half the house sale will allow him to buy a nice one-bed flat, but there is no way my uncle will be able to live independently. She might reach out to some charities to see if they can help him, but I don’t think she will do much beyond that. He’s such an awful person, I think she’ll be glad to never see him or deal with him again once her mother passes.

I have a similar situation. Youngest sister mid30s has had a chronic illness since early teens and has always lived with our parents. My mum in particular babies her a lot. Middle sister and I agree that neither of us will have her to live with us. We have told our parents that surely it is better for youngest sister to become independent with them nearby to help her transition, instead of doing it alone whilst bereaved. They agree in theory and do nothing in practice. It is very very hard to watch - my sympathies to you, your situation sounds even more complicated than mine.