AIBU to discuss A level success without private school spending?

[Absorbthecost]

Parents/carers who have not spent a penny on Educating their children and they have just received great A level results.

The sacrifices made all the struggle,

I’m interested to discuss families where the child has succeeded without need for private school

https://www.gbnews.com/money/private-school-fees-soar-vat

https://www.ft.com/content/091b214d-231b-414a-8f3e-9ef9fc021926?syn-25a6b1a6=1

Those who did pay,

presumably to secure great results at A level

The same kids off to Uni, placements easier to secure as less international competition. Uni the playing field evens.

And now time to pay for Uni,

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/university-tuition-fees-11000-2030-4705197?srsltid=AfmBOorss52PSHD6xJzisWMdeNxcXDen3IrCGS49nnGH1ZyDnmvTOh_k

A child who did outstanding (without spending a penny) the same result as a family who spent £250k + The above article is a low estimation for a selective U.K. day/ boarding.

The kids holding the same result off to the same Uni, How are families feeling!?…. Did you save to help towards the Uni Fees/accomodation.

Yeah I’m not sending my kids to private because our state school is brilliant. Resources are great (Astro, new theatre, full fitness suite, 80+ clubs, many trips abroad) and attention is positive.

Class Size for GCSE and a levels - approx 10-15.

Results were within 3% of granmars over the border and privates nearby.

Yeah I get every school is different but private isn’t always better and we saved the money.

Ermm...no.

State funded schools aren't allowed to prioritise their favourite families

If there are limited places available, they have to allocate them in a fair and transparent way.

Because they are funded out of taxation.

Private schools, in contrast, are funded by the parents of the students they accept. Not from taxation. So they are free to admit students as they choose.

State 6th forms are currently allowed to reserve a set number of spaces for existing students - but the (very reasonable) argument on this thread is that doing so should actually not be allowed.

But it is allowed.

So external candidates are at the mercy of decision makers who “ought” to do something but, may not? Entirely their own decision?

Things that make me laugh my little socks off on these threads:

Sacrifice old chestnut. That’s a hell of a lot of fripperies in the first place if sacrificing them for decades means you can afford private school.

State school places are not free. Well yes they are if you accept the definition of free used by absolutely everyone bar a few batshit mnetters. When you sit on a park bench do you say oh that wasn’t free, it was paid for by council tax payers in 1975?

“They have to allocate them in a fair and transparent way”

Subjective.

So all external candidates are at the mercy of school admissions and their own, personal moral compass? Is there any law? Guidebook? Or is it just as they see fit? Surely, a move from private through to state for 6th is a hot talking point for the school staff. Preferential to see their own students advance through the school in oversubscribed cohorts. They ought to be inclusive but are they? Or perhaps they choose to be as “inclusive” as a charitable Independent school is “charitable” Something both state/private ought to do but do they?

I'm completely OK with private parents deliberately changing sector to offset the discrimination some universities now apply against private school kids. Working around discrimination is justified..

And it does work. For Cambridge at least, whose preference for 'social injustice' over academic excellence is becoming ridiculous for a university which is supposed to be a UK leader.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/16/private-schools-university-entry-cambridge-state-schools

If you read the article, Cambridge say that applicants are not “gaming the system” because admissions tutors are aware of an applicant’s full education history...

Yet
"In 2022, the acceptance rate was 24 per cent for those who changed to sixth form college and 25 for those who switched to grammar. This was almost 33 per cent higher than the 19 per cent acceptance rate for private school children."

So it's really not surprising people make the switch, because it does work. Not because of contextualisation of schools with worse outcomes... but because of straight, deliberate discrimination against private.

On a similar vein, degree class awarded at Cambridge turns out to be significantly higher for students from private school than state, even after adjusting for factors such as grades at entry and income. Ie students from private get a better degree class than students from state with the same grades and the same family income. So much for a grade from private being worth less than the same grade from state! In reality, that grade from private leads to better ongoing achievement.

Which is exactly what you would expect following discrimination: those who do get in from private are much stronger and do better than those from state.

It's quite funny that when the results turned out that way for students from state school 40 years ago, it was seen as being the result of unfair barriers for state students... and Oxbridge went to huge efforts to widen participation... but then when the evidence clearly shows that they've swung too far the other way, then suddenly the same outcome means something totally different when it applies to children they don't like.

A private school is a charity because it provides education to its students. Education used to be seen as a social good.

It has no obligation to anyone else.

State schools on the other hand are funded by taxes, and have an obligation to taxpayers. Which includes private school parents.

After of course they have finished reserving seats for their own students.

An afterthought. Private school parents become secondary to the internal reserved seats. Because there is no one to answer to, it’s subjective. At the Mercy of the school.

Laws can change.

Hypothetically.

Have to laugh at the 'Mercy' of the state school to private school supplicants 😂

You need something from them.

They need nothing from you.

I need nothing from them.

But I'm very happy if other private parents find a way to push back against discrimination.

I think the UK will be a very different place in 10-15 years time.

The UK certainly needs the taxes of the top 10% of earners... who provide 60% of income tax receipts.

If you are under the illusion that other - more worthy - people will replace the GDP and productivity they provide, then you very clearly don't understand what they do.

It seems from the data the schools are more likely to get an Oxbridge on their records if they allow better performing private schooled children in. You can say all you like that grammars don't need this, but really if they have the choice between the kid who they know is going to get D's and an Oxbridge potential they aren't doing anyone favours to keep the lower performing kid who would get the same at the college. Gatekeeping education purely to penalise private school kids or to keep a previous student in their school over a kid who did better from another state school is unfair, surely you can see that.

Yet research says (UCL, Sutton Trust) that private schools/selective grammar schools do not get much better academic results than Comprehensive schools (maybe half a grade at A level if any) with students of similar ability.

Indeed Comprehensive students with similar A levels to students from private schools do better at University and at post grad level than the private pupils.

Comprehensive schools also achieve better results for lower achievers than secondary mods.

Interestingly when research was done about what factors lead to high achievement academically there was just one factor that stood out viz whether the parents ate with their children. This may explain why pupils from Chinese then Indian, then mixed Indian and white backgrounds achieved the best academic results ( as these are cultures which value eating meals together?)

Correlation does not equal causation.

You keep saying this OP that this thread was designed as an 'investigation'. If that was your intention, it most certainly was not clear! Your posts come across as aggressive and wholly critical of the independent sector.

I don’t understand why some of you on the private school side are arguing for Sixth Form attrition into the state sector. A significant proportion of high quality teachers specifically want to be teaching A level classes and a big enough cohort there to make their job worthwhile. Attrition at Sixth Form is a major risk factor for the private school sector. In addition to staff, most people look at A level results and uni destinations as the key factor in choosing a school. It may well be that the private sector will have to start using financial incentives and rewards to keep existing and loyal customers.
Secondly, as someone who has witnessed a lot of excellent staff leave to go to the private sector from our grammar schools. Of course the private school sector will be offering eg Maths and Physics teachers and any hard to recruit top staff discounts for their own children. It is part of the package of recruiting the best and the fact that the private school sector can adjust the benefits offered gives them a theoretical edge in recruitment.

Running a state school is also not too different than running an independent school. It is also about staff happiness and future cohorts and good results, as much as in the independent sector. There is not much budget for marketing spend to attract high numbers of applications to fill seats so results and reputation matter.
Year 7 is the main entry point for most. Comprehensives and grammars are not going to be chucking out the majority of their cohort as it could affect their applications at year 7 level. Typically, there will be minimum grades required for those staying post GCSEs (with some flexibility for adverse circumstances) and then there will be minimum grades and offers for externals. It has to be clear from the admissions policy what they are doing and how and that is about it.
The recruitment at Sixth Form level includes external state school kids too. In some regions eg London there is plenty of movement from state schools to other state schools at Sixth Form. The idea is that your existing school should act as a back up for most which is only fair. Chucking out kids post GCSEs on 21 August each year with a couple of weeks at most before start of term is not ever going to be backed up by the State. They don’t want under 18s out of education.

These are very good points @Araminta1004

I do find the university discrimination against private kids annoying, but it was you who reminded me last time this was hashed out that getting the best possible education for our kids is still - always - the best course. And that there are so many international career opportunities that a discriminatory blip is largely irrelevant.

I've found your wider perspective on international universities so interesting too.

Not what research from Cambridge says. Like other research kids from state do better at uni than private.

www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-school-pupils-do-better-at-university-cambridge-assessment-research-confirms/

The recieved 'truth' that Comprehensive students with similar A levels to students from private schools do better at University is from on a study published in 2014.

The study was based on data tracking the 2007–08 entrance cohort who graduated by 2011–2012 / 2012–13.

So it's about university entrance 20 years ago, not now.

Things have changed in 20 years... Cambridge, for example, started making lower offers to state students in 2010, and that has accelerated since.

The opposite is now the case. But because that doesn't fit the UK's preferred narrative of plucky disadvantaged kids, many people choose to deny more current statistical evidence.

The recruitment strategies have changed. Research from 2015 looking back is out of date!

Nice try.That is absolute rubbish. Care to link? For a start top grammars are unlikely to have many of their own getting Ds and a top performing grammar will prefer their own children who have navigated the state system via exams they teach in line with the national curriculum will be a far safer bet than the privately educated who need classes of 15 ,
IGCSEs and a private education ease way to top grades in exams.

Well 70% of uni students are state educated so…