To think climate change will force a complete rethinking about immigration?

[OneMoreBanana]

I'm not sure how many people, on the ground or in government policy making, have connected the dots here.

The climate crisis disproportionately affects the global south, where average temperatures are hotter, infrastructure less developed and available economic resources for mitigation lower. This is already making life in some areas, that have previously supported human communities for thousands of years, near impossible. There is talk of whole cities having to be abandoned.

The same crisis is primarily created by the industrialised countries of the global north, whose per capita emissions far outweigh those of less industrialised countries.

So if/when the large scale exodus of millions of people from no-longer-habitable environments becomes inevitable, two questions arise: Is it MORAL to disallow those people asylum in countries like the UK? And is it PRACTICABLE to do so - when the "small boats" issue becomes an increasingly large number of increasingly large boats, do we literally just view it as warfare and gun them down, or what?

These questions apply regardless of how you feel about immigration currently. If you are a hardline Brexiteer or otherwise strongly for controlling and reducing immigration, can you see a point in the future where it will no longer be tenable, either morally or practically, to maintain that position? And if you are liberal on immigration, can you see a point where having to be even more liberal will mean letting go altogether of many aspects of the UK's (and other countries') "identity"?

Interested in a range of perspectives - I think there's a whole bunch of sacred cows that may end up slaughtered by this. However if you believe that climate change either isn't happening or isn't due to human activity, please just jog on past and grow a brain cell or two. Life is too short.

@EmeraldShamrock000you’re very wrong. First generations maybe have slightly larger families but most Asian and African parents want their children to have an education and a career. Look at the average Pakistani family now, it’s no bigger than a white British family. Somali families are reducing in size. As soon as women start going to university, they are much less likely to have lots of children. I live in a very diverse area and it is unusual to see any woman with over 4 kids now.

I think so, if it’s just people on the move. Depends what form it takes and level of state involvement I guess from the side of origin.

It feels very wrong that those of us who caused climate change will stop those from suffering the effects from entering cooler countries. It wasn’t someone in Eritrea going on mini breaks four times a year, building factories, buying fast fashion, using AI filters to see what they would look like with a bob which caused this.

Its only really a barrier if less armed or coordinated people than us are trying to break the barrier. If say the US of China or indeed a new EU army we werent part of decided that it wanted to place displaced people here or just move food and water resources from here to them, im pretty sure they could just force the issue with diplomacy as they call it when approaching oil rich places.

If you look irish famine the people with power just moved food to where they wanted it to be and let the island starve.

I think there will be a much more persuasive argument for communism in the 2050s than there was in the 1950s.

I’m afraid you aren’t right at all.

Older immigrant families have indeed come to have fewer children and were aspirational for them. A lot of the recent immigration has been from areas which are very “traditional” to put it politely where the females do not work ever and if is a religious obligation to have as many children as possible. Dn is a teacher in inner London. She says the attitude of the parents has visibly changed from being super-keen on schooling to demands for own-language provision and segregation.

Also as pp said there has been no reduction in birth rates in most African countries and in fact the population is exploding.

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Also as pp said there has been no reduction in birth rates in most African countries and in fact the population is exploding

That isn’t true though, it’s only Sub Saharan that still has high rates

And even there, those rates are falling.

This subject has been studied widely and deeply and we know what the main factors are that influence birthrate: economic development of the country as a whole, and the education of girls.

Which is why when immigrant family move from high birth-rate developing countries to low birth-rate western ones, they naturally moved towards having similar numbers of children within a generation or two.

It’s not a shit load of babies causing population surges it’s people living longer which is also expensive.

But do you honestly think those that have already migrated here and been allowed to stay, but still have family abroad they’d like to bring over will sit by and allow this ‘fight for survival’ to happen passively? That they would accept closed borders?

I think not. I think we would have enormous levels of civil unrest and violence on our own shores if this eventuated.

it’s going to be horrendous I think

God help us then, because communism killed more people than ever before. Humans are disposable units to communists.

I don’t believe that poster is correct either.
The children are born year after year, A lot of African women do work, the Christian African women. The Muslim women do not.
We have neighbours from Syria. The mother is apparently a hospital consultant, they moved in 9 years, with two sons, now they’ve 7 children, he the father is a part time taxi driver, the mother is a SAHM.
We have a few Muslim families who have a lot of children but only one allows their children play with the other children. In the summer holidays the children play hide and seek, probably 30 children, I love to see the diversity, immigration in the past was beneficial, now it’s off the scale,
We have children from Indian, African, Asian and the Middle Easty countries. it’s scary for the families who are here years as they now face abuse because of the government’s policies on mass immigration.
That’s not pulling up the ladder, enough is enough.

Not enough of a balance on the babies been born. European women have been convinced for years to reduce births, save the planet, give your little family more, etc etc, or build your career, travel, believing it was positive. but now, apparently we need to import children to balance the country.

Yes I’m not sure that’s the answer. It’s usually state control with awful outcomes for the masses.

Agree. Communism wouldn’t be needing persuasive arguments in 2050 had it worked anywhere in the past.

And why would anyone even listen to those arguments when capitalism is working so well.

The problem with communism is so few in power thrive but worse than that use subjugation and violence to enforce outcomes for everyone else.

The idea that people would have to accept millions or else wouldn’t work, unless they really ramped up authoritarian and dictatorial measures.

Has communism worked well anywhere? It’s not like it hasn’t been tried.
When the Berlin Wall was still standing, which side did people try to escape from?
My own family came from a communist country, where corruption was rampant and the standard of living pretty low.
But that’s okay, isn’t it, as long as it’s equally rubbish for everyone (apart from those close to the ruling party).

Well yes this consequence is coming
The irony of reform and other right wing parties ignoring climate change and therefore driving future immigration isn't lost...

The answer doesn't lie in politics. All sides of the political spectrum are equally useless and incapable of solving the problems. All they will have left is authoritarianism, which is where we're heading.

I grew up under communism. It had its advantages, but plenty of disadvantages too. And corruption was all around. But the extremely rich would do well to remember that they are massively outnumbered and largely remain enormously wealthy by consent.

For us maybe right now? But isnt that your point, just as the impact of climate change is on particular regions, so is the impact of late stage capitalism. In that my life is quite nice, someone else is working in pretty awful conditions elsewhere. My pensions probably invested in it? Who knows. What will ai and robots do to all this?

Maybe the poor impacted by climate change will be the ones pushing for a form of communism in some sort of uprising.

Hopefully sooner than that.

Hopefully we'll do somrthing similar internally. Don't want my lovely little area of Scotland being overrun by people from the South trying to escape drought, water shortages and heat tbh. Maybe we should start rebuilding Hadrian's Wall to keep them out 🤔