Lucy Letby

[kkloo]

New thread as the last one has filled up.

Thanks for the reply! Which of the details do you think still add up to an iffy picture?

They spent years investigating Letby and have spent years on an inquiry assuming she murdered more babies. Did they ever investigate anyone else? Was the assumption natural causes or Letby only?

It sounds like the general medical care was very poor across the board for many of these babies in the unit and if someone higher up had admitted they weren’t coping maybe more would’ve survived at a better hospital which is the real scandal. Having experienced poor nhs maternity care myself and the lies and gaslighting that start before you’ve even got out of bed, everyone closing ranks seems pretty normal to me.

I don’t think anyone can say beyond reasonable doubt that the babies were murdered as the general medical care was so bad and the evidence against Letby is weak. I’m surprised how strong some people’s convictions are about this case - she was a bit intense and Evans said it was possible if a lot of highly implausible events happened without anyone noticing, some of which had never happened before.

The notes brought home will always seem odd to me...not the fact of bringing them home, but of keeping so many so long after they were relevant.

The ' I did this on purpose' writing. Yes, I get it could just have been stream of consciousness type outpourings, but then again it might not.

The insulin. Yes, the tests werent forensic/ perfect...but on the other hand they did seem to show insulin present. I know such sick babies present insulin differently , but even so, there was the possibility for the tests to show a different result than it did.

And also the fact that she seemed to want to be at the hospital so much. I get that people enjoy their jobs, but some of what I've read makes her sound so obsessive. And also the fact that she was called out on the quality and competence of some of some of her work and seemed particularly bothered by that as opposed to maybe just accepting she'd fucked up.

To be fair most of the handover sheets were not connected to her victims and just shoved in bags/bin bags. I don't know if she was a hoarder but keeping bags of rubbish is definitely something hoarders do.

I feel if there is any hint that the conviction is unsafe then a re trial is needed. I do not know if I think she is innocent either way but there is a question if she was given a fair trial and that has to be the key consideration here

Even when I thought Letby was guilty I was mystified by how much weight was put on ‘I am evil I did this’.

If the police had randomly raided her house then fair enough. But the police found it after years of hints and suggestions which tipped into downright accusations, then removal from the ward and a grievance.

It also said ‘I have done nothing wrong’ but that’s never mentioned. I honestly don’t understand why one statement is apparently totally factual and taken as read (oh, she said she did it, so she did) and the other is to be largely ignored but if acknowledged at all taken as the sign of a confused mind and stress.

Show me an NHS organisation that doesn’t have duty of candour policies, robust freedom to speak up arrangements, frameworks that prioritise a Just Culture and psychological safety, as well as clearly stated expectations on these from its board, then I’ll show you an organisation that’s going to bomb its next CQC Safe/Well Led inspections and will also quite possibly have restrictive undertakings slapped on it by NHSE.

I absolutely get that some organisations have failed badly at all of this, but it’s nonsense to suggest there is some sort of NHS-wide conspiracy of corruption. I have worked at board level for a number of different NHS orgs and I can assure you that I have never seen anything of the sort at any of them (nor would I have stood by and just let it happen if I ever did).

Obviously, all the policies in the world are only as effective as the organisational culture they sit within, and these systems are ultimately reliant on individuals doing the right thing. For what it’s worth, one of the reasons I feel so strongly about the way the Letby miscarriage of justice claims are playing out, is because I can see how damaging it is to building these cultures of candour and speaking up. Professional reputations (eg the consultants, but plenty of others too) are being blithely trashed in a very public and not remotely evidenced way and I can see how it will make people think twice about speaking up if they think there might be a problem in their own service.

I would be fascinated to know if any of the professionals who’ve been the subject of some of the entirely baseless accusations I’ve seen are taking legal action in the background. I think I would be if I were them.

So are you saying that Nottingham and Shrewsbury didn’t happen? That they were transparent and honest places and any tragic events were purely down to bad luck or perhaps inexperience or some such benign act but not corruption and cover ups, no. Why, there are policies!

Because we both know that is bollocks, to express myself rather more bluntly than is characteristic.

Whether she is guilty or not Letby’s case is a mirror of what’s been going on in our nhs, particularly regarding maternity and neonatal care. Either a nurse was able to murder babies in plain sight, largely unnoticed and unremarked upon for years, such was the level of chaos, or the hospital was so chaotic deaths happened and tragedies occurred.

How anyone can argue that corruption hasn’t been taking place I don’t know, even if you are convinced she was guilty. If she was guilty, if she was murdering babies or trying to at the rate of roughly one per month, doesn’t that raise some pretty serious concerns about the hospital as an institution? I rather think it does.

We need better ways to help people speak up about problems with their services. And we need better responses when they do. But that doesn't mean silencing discussion of problems with their services.

There is copious evidence of problems with Chester's neonatal services, from failings documented at inquest to multiple points in the RCPCH report. I am not a fan of trying to pin these failings on individuals and to lambast them for it. We don't know what pressures these people were under, what resources they requested and were denied, how heavy their commitments were outside the neonatal unit - bearing in mind that the bulk of the consultants' responsibilities elsewhere.

Unfortunately, however, once a criminal case is opened, contingent events do become a matter of public concern. That's all the more true when they have a bearing on public health. The same applies to legal inquiries. While your comments are a useful reminder not to turn from one witch-hunt to another, it is not reasonable to expect that people sit in silence and swallow narratives from Chester Police and Liz Hull as ever more indications of failings at Chester emerge.

If there's one thing everyone can agree on regardless of views on her guilt, it's that she won't be nursing again. Even if fully exonerated tomorrow. She's off the register, not sure she could take the practical steps necessary to go back on and no hospital could realistically employ her if she did, if nothing else the weirdos and gawpers would ensure she'd be more trouble than she was worth.

So you don't need to worry about that!

That's true, I wouldn't want to work in nursing anyway if I was found not guilty, why would you. Maybe the medical staff and managers will never work again if found guilty or negligence or, as suspected, be promoted or moved sideways with massive payoffs.

I dont think they look like normal diary entries and could be interpreted as the outpourings of a stressed mind..but they could also be the ramblings of a deranged mind. I dont think you can discount that possibility.

I think she was in all likelihood mentally unstable and unable to think clearly in that moment, as many people are when under huge amounts of stress. That doesn’t mean she murdered anyone, though.

I was saying it in a slightly tongue in cheek way tbh, but I agree, she'd never get a nursing job again. It doesnt sound like she was completely competent even before any of the really awful stuff happened anyway. I wouldnt want a nurse who doesnt know how to fit a line properly, or whatever it was she did wrong. She had to be tested on stuff. Working hard, loving a job etc etc doesnt mean you are actually any good at it and therein, perhaps, lay the initial problem.

So are you saying that Nottingham and Shrewsbury didn’t happen? That they were transparent and honest places and any tragic events were purely down to bad luck or perhaps inexperience or some such benign act but not corruption and cover ups, no. Why, there are policies!

I literally said that some organisations have failed badly - Nottingham and Shrewsbury would be two of them. Blanket NHS-wide corruption is not a thing though, and that you think it is speaks volumes about the fevered, conspiracy-fuelled nature of so much of the Letby discourse.

Because we both know that is bollocks, to express myself rather more bluntly than is characteristic.
Whether she is guilty or not Letby’s case is a mirror of what’s been going on in our nhs, particularly regarding maternity and neonatal care. Either a nurse was able to murder babies in plain sight, largely unnoticed and unremarked upon for years, such was the level of chaos, or the hospital was so chaotic deaths happened and tragedies occurred.

If you really believe this, why do you think we’ve not seen suspicious fingers pointed at innocent HCPs at any of these other trusts? Why only at the CoCH?

How anyone can argue that corruption hasn’t been taking place I don’t know, even if you are convinced she was guilty. If she was guilty, if she was murdering babies or trying to at the rate of roughly one per month, doesn’t that raise some pretty serious concerns about the hospital as an institution? I rather think it does.

Yes, I have significant concerns about the way some of the managers at the CoCH behaved. And clearly so do the police and CPS, which is why several have been arrested on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter.

@rubbishatballet i can only guess. I wasn’t there. I don’t believe she is guilty of any murders or attempted murders. I do believe she was the victim of bullying and became a convenient scapegoat to pin institutional chaos and errors on.

Lucy Letby wasn't fitting lines etc. That was done by doctors.

All nurses on the unit were retested on their competencies after the unit was downgraded, not just Lucy Letby. It was a general check. We know it didn't produce any problems in Lucy Letby's case, but not about others. But nobody has ever suggested that anything relevant to the deaths was found at that point.

Agree with others she's hardly going to work as a nurse again, but I think you've got the wrong impression there about the testing

And the apparent over- involvement during the aftermath to the deaths. I know people can easily re-write history once they have hindsight, but even so, accounts do seem to suggest a seizing of every opportunity to ramp up the drama . Facebooking, texting, hovering about unnecessarily. It almost seems an insult to suggeat that none of the parents' feelings or observations should carry any weight, and I believe scfair fee people found her behaviour inappropriate

I’ve yet to work somewhere there hasn’t been a certain amount of drama. Messaging about this and that and did you hear about and oh my goodness do you know what happened yesterday oh really surely not but I thought he’d no really he did but what will he do next …

It seems that you’ve rapidly got fully up to speed on some of the more lurid and fanciful accusations levelled. Did you get around to reading anything from any serious experts or journalists yet?

@rubbishatballet Apparently you haven’t read my posts. I was referring to the initial conversations.

Dewi Evans is not a neonatologist, no. He’s a paediatrician with some professional exposure and experience of dealing with neonatal care during his career. He retired in 2009 and is thus years out of the game. He is not an appropriate expert witness as does not have the right specialism or recent experience. Although he would be fine on a multidisciplinary panel that included neonatology consultants senior neonatology nurses with more recent practice.

If you ever really did work in criminal defence you would know how completely bizarre it is that the police ignored the NCA recommendation of a multidisciplinary panel and stuck with one bloke.

As I have said, had that been done this case would not have gone to court.

I completely agree. I would suggest it was more 'vibes' that made the fans believe MJ was innocent. I mean I also thought he seemed like a nice, if odd, man. But what made me think he was guilty were facts. He had unrelated children sleeping in his bed with him. He had pornography and indecent images of children that he showed the boys.

Sure, but you've moved from objective to subjective measurements of her competence as nurse, now, and you're describing something which is both influenced by hindsight and a very mixed picture even then, and even by the parents' accounts. Have we any way to compare any of this with other nurses' actions and attitudes? It's all a long way from making someone particularly unusual, or a murderer

@rubbishatballet Apparently you haven’t read my posts. I was referring to the initial conversations.

Okay, so can you tell me what the problem is with having informal initial conversations then?

Dewi Evans is not a neonatologist, no. He’s a paediatrician with some professional exposure and experience of dealing with neonatal care during his career. He retired in 2009 and is thus years out of the game. He is not an appropriate expert witness as does not have the right specialism or recent experience. Although he would be fine on a multidisciplinary panel that included neonatology consultants senior neonatology nurses with more recent practice.

You clearly know a lot about neonatology expertise. Any ideas how you might go about finding a currently practicing, suitably experienced, expert witness trained neonatologist who is also able to take the requisite amount time off work to assume this role? Conscription maybe? Oh, and obviously it will also need to be someone who’s not conflicted even though it’s a pretty small subspecialty with a correspondingly small network of people who are quite likely to already know/have previously worked with each other. And also, lol to “some professional exposure and experience of dealing with neonatal care” (the CoA judges want a word).

If you ever really did work in criminal defence you would know how completely bizarre it is that the police ignored the NCA recommendation of a multidisciplinary panel and stuck with one bloke.
As I have said, had that been done this case would not have gone to court.

Yes I really did work in criminal defence, albeit a long time ago now. And can you provide your source for the claim that the police ignored the NCA’s recommendation?

But as this conversation is about the appropriateness of Dewi Evans’s approach to the NCA, even if the police did ignore the NCA’s advice that was their failing and nothing to do with him anyway.

Yes, actually, I did. Started on the Private Eye stuff. I shall read all of it. But I dont think it's convincing to label ' fancifil' or 'lurid' any of those arguments someone else comes up with just because they dont fit with your point of view. It's like saying LL is innocent because.....I said so. I wonder what would have happened if LL had been found with a smoking gun in her hand . " Sorry Witness A, with the 20/30 vision, but you should have gone to Specsavers". Maybe, when I've read all of it, I'll come to the same conclusion as you. Who knows. Maybe I am talking through the hole in my hat. But there still seems to me to be an awful lot of weird stuff going on in this case - which cant just conveniently be dismissed as irrelevant.