To think the menopause makes no sense evolutionarily speaking

[CurdinHenry]

Sure maybe it makes sense that women evolve into a new phase of wisdom and a role that's different from child having and of that. But how come we all seem to run out of the basic chemicals needed to keep our pelvic floor from collapsing? How can we be evolved to be almost certain to get very unwell across time (in our longer years on this planet) if we don't take supplements that have only existed for less than 100 years????

Feel a bit stressed about it.

I kind of think this “evolving to a new but vital stage” is kind of bullshit and the answer is that it didn’t really matter if women pissed themselves frequently or had sweats and generally felt shit because by that stage they’d served their evolutionary purpose.

I don't agree. Humans are community based creatures and that's the seat of our survival. I guess evolution can't select for people who maintain a good pelvic floor post menopause because it happens post selection but it's still weird to me.

As far as evolution is concerned, we are not supposed to survive long enough for menopause

I agree with @AllJoyAndNoFun, it’s only in the last few generations that we’ve started to live through menopause, until relatively recently life expectancy was 40 or so. Evolution didn’t think that far ahead, and it’s woo to say otherwise.

Thank goodness for HRT.

My pelvic floor is fine - I had 5 children, did the exercises and fingers crossed still fine in my 70s.

Menopause makes complete sense evolutionarily speaking.
There is no point having a geriatric body try and grow and birth a baby. You’d not live long enough to raise the baby even if you survived the pregnancy and childbirth. I’m super happy being post menopausal. I feel better and healthier.

The prolapse, incontinence and so on is usually caused by modern medical interventions that hurry birth along. Episotomy, pitocin, breaking the waters, forceps, ventouse these all cause severe internal damage and large, deep tears. Even the cervical exams to check dilation damage us internally. It’s not caused by a lack of chemicals.

Evolutionarily speaking, you're wrong, it does make sense. It's because women have already reproduced before menopause happens, so it doesn't matter if they die afterwards. It's job done. Modern medicine can change things for the individual, but there is no way of a theoretical non-menopause gene to out compete menopause in women because both types would continue to pass genes on.

That’s not true. We aren’t giant squid.
We are meant to be around to teach our children how to parent.
That’s how we are such a successful species.

It has an evolutionary basis. Child raising is hard work so those who had their mothers to help them (as mothers no longer looking after own babies) could have more children themselves.

No no no. You are not understanding how life expectancy tables work.
Even two hundred years ago, if you lived to adulthood, your life expectancy was still the mid60s.
The average life expectancy was artificially suppressed by the high rate of infant and child mortality.

There is no 'meant to' in evolution. There is no plan or direction.

Well biologically, we run out of the hormones because we no longer need them to procreate. And biologically pre medicine we'd likely be dead within 10 years of menopause. So our quality of life and vitality wasnt really that important in terms of survival. The change in hormones doesn't mean we all get collapsed pelvic floors. Supplements are not the answer to menopause. HRT, exercise, better rest/sleep, supporting each other and healthy eating can help some of us.

I always thought there was the "grandmother" theory (evolutionary speaking theory), as in the older women survive to support the younger generation with child rearing, and being part of the "village" needed to raise a child.

I could be totally wrong here though lol 😆

I do agree with you, menopause is utterly crap. I look back at the prime of my life health-wise before perimenopause started aged 39 and feel sad to think I will never feel so well again. The thought of 30 odd years of feeling awful really is a bit depressing 😕

I think many women who transition to menopause without pain or stress are probably more than the number who need help. They probably keep quiet!

Also, now many women drink, eat sugar, eat less whole foods and are overweight which definitely makes everything a thousand times worse.

It’s a results based process, saying meant to or supposed to isn’t to say there is some grand plan or divine will but that this is how the process works.

Our evolving bodies haven’t fully caught up with the fact that we’re now living longer than we’ve ever needed to before.
It was thought some women lived longer than men (in, say prehistoric times) to help bring up the next generation, especially as many young women died in childbirth. But that would only bring the GM’s up to their 40s to 50s. By that age, a grandmother probably would have finished bringing up her daughter’s children if they were born in daughter’s teens or 20s.
We can just attribute our longer life spans to improved childhood nutrition and vaccination, disease control and antibiotics, better outcomes of surgery and, in women, much safer pregnancy and childbirth.

This is not true. The average age may have been 40 but that was because so many kids died in infancy.

We exercised more in the past. We didn't have medical "assistance" during birth. We ate a better diet. We only lived 10-15 years post menopause. All these things meant the impact of menopause wasn't as bad on a population level. There will have been some individuals impacted awfully.

Slight tangent, but a life expectancy of 40 does not mean most people in the past only lived to 40. Life expectancy is determined in part by the infant mortality rate, and in societies with high infant mortality (like many societies in the past) average life expectancy at birth will have been low. But people who survived past infancy/early childhood would have a higher life expectancy, if you see what I mean.

Well if we didn’t turn into fat, sweaty swamp monsters with leaky bladders and a hairy top lip, men would still attempt their rutting with us and it would be a waste of time. They need to save their precious seed for the young fertile members of the female species. It’s like a big sign over our heads saying “Fuck off Phil, I’m done with all that!”

In a way, that is kind of even more depressing up to a point - if you went through the menopause early, you might be dead by 50! 😳😢

You assume that evolution is supposed to be a system that always makes sense. Often it does – but it is full of imperfections. It wasn’t designed, after all.

Im not sure this is right. I’ve had four births without modern interventions (no internals etc etc , just basically freebirths without someone in the room) and as I was young everything just went pretty much back to normal straight away no rips no tears no stitches . But twenty years on I feel the effects of menopause, and I’d say it’s hormonal due to dwindling oestrogen rather than due to injuries caused by modern birthing interventions.

Well, I’m not sure the dwindling estrogen hypothesis makes any sense at all as I’m in chemically induced menopause with aromatase inhibitors (thank you ER+ breast cancer). I have had zero estrogen for over a year, it’s lower than a 90yr old who is 40 years past menopause. No issues with my pelvic floor or incontinence.

It's because, unlike other species, it takes a very long time for a human being to grow up and be independent. Menopause stops women reproducing so that they can help their daughters with the process of getting children to adulthood.

Menopause doesn't automatically mean pelvic floor problems and needing to take supplements to feel normal. I got through it without HRT, taking any supplements, losing pelvic floor function. I had terrible sweats and flooding so it wasn't straightforward, I viewed it as a normal bodily process which would end.