Splitting up friends in different classes

[doosesmarket]

NC - work in a primary school

AIBU to say that if your child has been split from their friend when moving to their new classes that there is probably a reason this has been done?

Class lists went out yesterday morning and by afternoon we already had lots of messages about children being put into different classes to their friends. One of the children’s parents who was the most upset was complaining her child X wouldn’t be with his friend Y. X and Y are lovely children but together think they are a law unto themselves, do not listen, always off doing something they shouldn’t and have encouraged poor choices and behaviour in each other all term.

A and Bs parents are gobsmacked we have split them up. Both parents are best friends and expect A and B to be best friends too. Except A actually displays bullying behaviour to B constantly, does not allow B to make their own choices and bosses B around to do what A wants to do. B desperately needs space to be their own person.

They have playtime and lunch together and can see each other then. The classroom is for learning so being with their friends is neither here nor there.

It is very frustrating that parents think we are being so horrible by splitting up friends when in fact it is done for the children’s benefit so they can concentrate on learning without distraction or to provide them with a different environment that will benefit them!

You’d think wouldn’t you but parents aren’t always rational and do not accept that their child behaves in X way or it’s not possible for the school to say explicitly that Johnny’s parent has specifically asked that they are not with your child (as they’ve asked in confidence and the school has agreed). Many times schools are direct but the parent will not hear or will not agree. It can literally go on and on to the point of harassment with more parents than you would think (of course that’s not the story they will tell you on here or at the school gate about the situation and how they have dealt with it). What would be much easier if parents trusted the process (which takes forever and involves careful thought) and equipped their children (alongside what the school do) with the skills to manage being in different groups, classes, scenario’s.

This has always been the way in secondary school. I was a bit worried when my eldest started secondary but it was a real positive in the end, same for my youngest. They got to branch out and grow, making new friendships, but we also found that the older primary friendships blossomed into larger groups that included new friends from their form groups etc too. In the case of my youngest, they actually benefitted from some space from their primary school “best friend” so they could blossom in their own right. They’re still friends, but the friendship is not as all-encompassing as it was which is definitely a good thing.
My oldest has just finished year 11. At no point were they in a single class with their two primary school besties. They are still very close.

Why not?

In my daughters year 4 class
A and B - together they were quite disruptive as constantly chatting, laughing etc (A is mine)

C and D - had constant drama. C is my close friends daughter.

I was told why my daughter separating from B, and C was told why separating from D. Phrased as a best interests of children decision

Now near end of year 5 and this has been the best decision.
.
Turned out B was being very dominant and my daughter is doing much better without her. C's mum was pleased as fed up with the drama.

From this experience I think the teachers really know what they are doing and most parents agree it was best they were mixed up.

The only issue has been that the classes were clearly streamed. Out if the 15ish brightest children, all were put in the 1 class. School have denied streaming but it's very obvious to the parents. And I don't have any issue with that, but feel they should have been honest

This 100%

It doesn’t always seem to make sense though.

My DC’s primary school is 4 classes per year and for some reason they feel the need to mix them up every 2 years after reception, no communication about why this is beneficial.

The children are asked who their preferred friends are, the teachers are asked to make recommendations and the teacher checks their list with the parents.

After year 2 my DC was split up from all of their friends, they were in tears but have worked hard to make new friendships over the last 2 years, then lo and behold last week they’re separated from all their friends once again.

They mild mannered, never had any trouble with behaviour or friendships at school and our list of friends has always been the same as the teachers’.

I can only conclude it’s because they’re one of the quiet resilient ones so misses out to prioritise other needs. I get it’s must be a nightmare for the school to organise these changes but honestly what is the point in doing it so frequently in the first place.

The worst part is they actually don’t tell the kids whose class they will be in so parents are forced to put together the pieces through WhatsApp groups and it’s me that has to deal with the fall out of them being left out once again.

Now they’ve had the transition days and met their lovely new teacher they’re feeling better but feels like a lot of pointless upset that could be avoided.

Thoughtless??????
Out of date?????
You have no idea.
I've been in meetings that lasted literally hours debating mixing up classes.
And then we reconvened next day after half the teachers had spent all night thinking about it.
And after all this still receive bitter complaints because child X isn't with their choice of friends.
Parents need to realise that our criteria for mixing lists includes information that we cannot share and it is absolutely impossible to give everybody what they want. I's about what the class as a whole needs, not just your kid.

Thats why you give a generic statement.

Classes have been set with careful consideration about abilities, and personality types, it's not good to have all the outgoing children in one class, or vice versa all the introverts together.
We do consider friendships but it is not always possible to have children with their friends. We encourage children to mix at break times.

All Classes are full please don't ask us to move your child.

I highly doubt that the groups were selectively streamed.
Sometimes it just happens that way.
One year because of umpteen different criteria that needed to be considered first, this happened to us... two very different ability classes.
It wasn't what the team would have chosen, it wasn't done on purpose, it just turned out that way. Both groups functioned well in the end, but believe me, schools don't stream on the sly and then deny it.

I agree schools could helpfully inform general basis eg 'to provide a balance of academic and social needs within the classroom. please don't forget they still see each other at break and lunch', but it won't stop the complaints.

We explain the process before.
We ask that parents express particular concerns beforehand.
We do our utmost best to make balanced groups.

Doesn't stop them complaining though.

Omg absolutely..so many parents do not encourage resilience in their children these days. We've started sending letters out pre class list reveal explaining that teachers spend significant time putting together class lists and please trust the decisions made support your child to build resilience.

No, I don't always think there's a reason. DD in foundation was in a friendship group of 4 girls. They got on perfectly. Going up into y1, DD was put in one class and the other 3 in the other. DD sought them out every break and lunch, and the friendship happily continued throughout y1. I asked towards the end of the year whether she could move classes for y2, she did, and they remained in the same class until they left primary, friends throughout.

I think the school had just been thoughtless.

Loads - a lot of people do! No job should be immune from question or challenge - that way disaster lies.

Yeah I get that, and I know some parents who assume the worst right off the bat, which is ridiculous. But I think the situation the OP described where teachers are not allowed to tell the truth to the parents is equally ridiculous tbh! We can only equip our children properly when we know the true story.

I agree this is a school culture issue. You should be able to tell the parents exactly why Josie and Scarlet can’t be in the same class.

This.

My observation too was those extrovert loud friendship groups were put together over the quieter ones - who generally found it harder to make friends.

They hedged their bets by telling them they had to write 5 girls and 5 boys from their class. As dd1 (who thankfully never went through this as she struggled enough with the transition every year) put it: She'd have had 2 boys, 1 girl she'd have had on her list. About 3-4 she really wouldn't have wanted to be with, and the rest she would have felt it was irrelevant.
Even with 10 people dd2 had one year when none on her list were put with her. Apparently "it was just awkward numbers and we couldn't do it" - and no, they didn't put any priority of putting her with anyone else she got on with particularly either.
I'd also note that when dd2 was going to secondary, for various reasons she is classed as vulnerable so the lovely secondary invited us in to talk about her. They said cheerfully "we've put her with exactly who the junior school has advised. They've said she's really good friends with the others."
So I asked who and my jaw dropped. She was put with one child I'd been in several times over bullying and two children who she'd never had contact before because they'd never been in her form. There were girls from dd2's friendship group going to the same school so it wasn't that there was no one she was friends with. So I take issue with the "teachers always do their best" message given here. At "best" that was ignorant - but wilful ignorance, surely because they couldn't have pretended she was "good friends".
And, no, it didn't turn out all right in the end. Bully continued bullying, and thankfully the school listened to dd2 and she was moved form at the end of year 7.

It was also a large number of classes per year so the chances were if you were split from your friend, then you'd never get back with them - there was no way to request it.
Lunch times were also split by form - each form had their own timing for lunch time and had to sit together. So if your friend was in a different form there was only about 20 minutes of time they could play together.

My observation from seeing children go through this is that it helps exactly the wrong children. The children who are confident socially love it and see it as an opportunity to make new friends; the children who struggle confidently and take time to settle just give up and stop trying to make friends. I heard that directly from children as well as observation with the children over the years.

I think there is a place for swapping forms around; but the schools that do it whatever every year is not helpful for many children and I wish that was acknowledged.

I would agree with you, if, speaking to parents with children in older years, this wasn't a theme. Plus the timing - between years 4 and 5 in an area which has 11+ - and also, as a governor, I overheard a conversation between head and one of the year 5 teachers saying 'X has got the grammar class this year, you will get it next year'. Of course, they could be talking about SPAG, but I somehow think not.

Of course, they look at social dynamics too, but in every pairing they separated, the higher ability of the 2 ended up in 1 class

The only issue I had with it was they told the children
'Next week you will be asked to put down your 3 friends you want to be with next year, we will try our best to make sure with oneif then at least'

Cue my daughters friendship group of 6
A- I'm going to put down B,C,D'
B - I'm going to put down CDE'
And so on, they thought if they all put a combination of others in order they would all be together. Of course, they werent

And there was some of the other girls who no one said they were going to put down, which caused upset and arguments.

I wish they had just said 'we will be working it out in the way we think best, you will still see each other at breaktimes

The worst example of parental complaining was the year that a "very involved" parent went and complained that her DD had not been put with "any of her friends". No one actually understood the complain as the DD had several friends in her class.

It turns out that the mother didn't deem those friends good enough and actually wanted her DD to be put in a class with the other girls that she thought she ought to be friends with.

I'm a retired secondary school teacher. We had the same problem.

Surely secondaries don't have this issue as they are in different classes for each subject due to streaming, subject choices etc?

Not in years 7 and 8 - they remain in their class with the possible exception of maths (maybe science and English depending on school). Unless private of course.

Totally school dependent. Mine had no classes with their "Form". Normal comprehensive. The forms only had 22 children in, subject classes difffered.

Well that's nonsense. My DD2 was the only child to attend her secondary. Dd1 was with a couple of friends but had new ones by Xmas and DS was one of 3 kids from his primary went to that secondary.

None of them had settling problems

Not really when you do all the form allocations, taking into account physical access, SEND, preferred MFL and suchlike first, to then have 13 emails from parents and 3 from primary headteachers saying 'don't put these together at all under any circumstances as there have been multiple incidents in the playground where we've had to call the police to separate the parents. And then another 4 parents email to say that actually, there is a kid from another school that they had issues with so they mustn't be with anybody from that school. And then somebody else contacts because they want their child to be with their best friend, the Mums are best friends from school themselves - at the same time as the 'best friend' has also got in touch to ask that they are separated across bands because the friendship has been extremely toxic.

And you have to try and do that whilst maintaining full confidentiality - and not dropping on some random child that they're being moved 'for no reason' when it's because they appear to be one of the few who doesn't have problems with everybody else.