Is this a typical primary school day / experience?

[ThinkingIsAllowed]

My son goes to private school and I can't decide if it's worth the money. Could he get this experience at a state primary? He's about to finish Reception.

• starts 8.20am, senior teacher always waiting by the gate to greet each child by name, and expects to be greeted back by the child
• writing, maths, phonics etc in his class of 12 children that has 1 teacher and part time TA
• calm class environment, no disruption
• forest school once per week, including things like making a campfire
• learns to read with actual paper books! No tablets. The teacher or TA reads with him most days
• sports 3x per week, including swimming, dance and PE
• club until 4.30 every day, things like art or sports
• after school care til 5.35 if you want it. Colouring etc
• a lot of contact with the teacher. If I ever have a question I can email her and she replies within a day, or can meet with her, or she will proactively email me to check something or make an observation (eg she wrote to suggest he might be ambidextrous)
• lots of outside space so the children help occasionally in the vegetable garden etc
• good quality food, cooked on site
• 3 school trips this year

It seems like a good school but we pay a lot for it and if we can get this experience outside of the private sector that would be good!

It will very much depend on your local area. I've heard of schools that very much pride themselves on a private school like experience. Others are completely different. Perhaps explore your local state options and think about how you could spend the money on any necessary enrichment for your DC.

Class size... no. Phonics etc Yes
Forest school yes
Books yes
Sport... probably not. Especially swimming.
Clubs... limited
After school care yes
Outdoor space varies
School trips.. maybe 1 or 2

But you will have £20k a year to make up the limitations on sports, music, art etc.

Every school is different so you won’t get a definitive answer unless you visit a school local to you. But for ours:

• school starts 8.30 (or 7.45 if you pay extra for breakfast club), head stands outside the gate to greet parents and children
• my class has 27 children but 30 is the norm, I have a full time TA but also a child who needs pretty much 1:1 attention
• we aim for no disruption but unfortunately there is some
• no forest school
• yes paper books
• sports 2x per week
• after school clubs until 4 but these have to be paid for by parents
• no after school care, 4pm is the latest
• contact books are provided for the children but parents are not allowed our email addresses due to abusive emails sent to us over COVID (because apparently the schools closing was our fault and we deserve to lose our jobs)
• large field and playground but limited on outdoor resources
• food is OK, all prepped on site
• field trips unfortunately are at a minimum as none of our parents financially contribute so we don’t have funding, we’ve done a few free trips by walking though

For comparison, the primary my kids are at doesn't do the following from your list - swim, dance. They do have week long workshops for eg street dance, art, and terms with particular instruments. After school club exists but for a fee. Class size is 24 and could be up to 34, theoretically. Everything else, they do. Greeted at the gate by head, see teacher every day at pick up, one or 2 TA's per class, great outdoor provision as they have an opal play platinum award and a forest school. Great food cooked on site. Decent school trips, including residentials for years 4 and 6. Books are all paper and they have a great library and support for reading. I consider the school to be fabulous and will be sad when my eldest finishes in two weeks!

Unlikely to get a class of 12 in state school. Classes this small usually become mixed.

Sports more like twice a week and definitely less variety and lower intensity/chance to compete/have fixtures than private.

Teachers will respond to messages and emails but it’s my experience that they may take longer / need prompting - mainly because they usually have more like 30 children and an email to each of their parents even once a week is a good 2 hours of their time.

Everything else you can get in state school yes, if you find the right one.

Apart from the size of class, that pretty much describes my children's old primary school. PE was twice a week but there were lots of after school clubs. Every class had at least 1 TA in the morning and some afternoons.

Plus the school was a real part of the local community, which we valued a lot.

Oldest was in a class of 25 which was typical for that area. Younger one actually was in a class of 12 for a while (freak low birth rate that year. They kept them separate for reception, after that they were in a mixed class) and tbh it had definite cons alongside the obvious pros - much less choice of friends being the main one.

Tbh that's immaterial really though isn't it? What are your local state schools like? Unless you want to up stocks and move then surely that's all that's relevant here?

You could get most of this at a good state school. You'd need to look at your local schools to see what kind of level they're at though. There is more variation within the state system than there is between the top state schools and private schools. It's just whether you're lucky to have a great state school nearby.

I think the one thing you're unlikely to get at a very good state school is small class sizes, you're probably looking at a minimum of 25 kids in a class. Whether having 10 or so extra kids in a class is worth a £25,000 a year saving is for you to decide. Ime most schools will offer clubs, activities, after-school care and trips but you will need to pay for this (although you also have to pay extra for this at lots of prep schools too).

Thank you for the comments so far.

Our local state primary said they had a bit of a problem with disruption in classrooms when we looked around, and that really put me off. Plus they had no green space or fields, just a concrete playground.

We would move house if needed to access a better school.

It depends on local schools, and also, let's face it, the children who are attending the local schools. If there is a focus on education by the parents, then this will naturally filter through to the kids.

I think state schools are unlikely to ever give the same level of service as they have much more sparse funding, but a good state school gives some of it.

My dc's primary school had a teacher to greet the dc every day, though not until 8.40.

We had similar staffing numbers, though that was due to being a tiny rural school. Had there been a birth increase in the area there could have been 30 dc in the class.

The environment was calm, but again, this is largely down to the other dc in the class I think.

Yes to weekly forest school and real books (I think that one is definitely a standard in all schools).

Pe twice a week (smaller range of activities I suspect), after school club until 5 (but a limited range of activities, mainly craft and games). Two trips a year (at Christmas and in the summer, but I'd guess cheaper places than a private school might choose).

Lots of space, a vegetable garden and flourishing gardening club.

The meals varied a lot depending on which cook was working.

On the whole, I was very happy with the school and paying for private school wouldn't have been worth it for us. But I think a lot depends on the school and area, we were quite lucky I think.

Every school is different, I mean I have never come across a school that doesn’t have real reading books? I thought all schools had books not tablets?

our primary for comparison,..

8:45 start
8:50 morning maths challenge
9:00 maths
10.00 fruit and milk break
10:20 English/phonics….
11:20 PE or science
12:20 Lunch
1:20 PE or Humanities
2:20 Art/DT/Cooking
3:00 assembly
3:15 home time

the children have swimming and activities outside just like your school. Teachers can be messaged on Dojo 24hours but messages are only answered 8-5 unless it’s urgent.

choice of meal cooked on site usually two hot options, one sandwich option and one jacket option daily either salad bar and bread basket on offer daily. Children read to the teacher or another adult 3x a week

school trip just once a year but they have lots of companies coming in to do special assembly’s such as pantos at Xmas or science shows.

after school clubs are available, my child is doing science club this term which is out sourced and cost £65 per term. Other clubs such as Art/cooking is run by the school and it’s free.

our council run school in an area of poverty it is in acres of ground and has animals and veg patches.

I find that the teachers really do care and want to help the children.

My GC school doesn't have the trips and the sport is available as extras. We are well served in our area for sports and they are low cost or free (especially if you show talent). We are very lucky, though.

Depends on the school, but you are extremely unlikely to find class sizes of 12 in state schools-that’s what people pay for.

I have never taught in a school without actual reading books though!

Think it massively depends on your school.

My children have attended both a 2 form entry (30 kids per class) school on the outskirts of a major city and village school with an average of 25 kids per class/year.

My experience :

• start time is around 8.50, finish around 3.20.
• greeting outside/by the door by name is standard
• calm/quiet environment - sometimes. Depends if they're doing a structured lesson or focusing more on free play. Gets calmer as they grow through the school.
• forest school weekly - nope. It's been every other week in the village and same in the city but only for a term.
• books rather than tablets - yes
• reading multiple times a week with a teacher, TA or reading buddy - yes
• sports 3x a week - nope. Just once.
• after school options - for a fee. More in the city (dance, music, multiple sports, plus just general childcare/colouring as you say) than the village (arts and crafts, brownies, martial arts, football)
• lots of contact with the teacher - hard to quantify but I'd say yes. We see them every day, can also contact them via an app, get regular updates
• lots of outside space - yes in both. Different zones for different age groups/uses. Ie a big field Vs play equipment Vs wooded area. No gardening though. City school was next to a city farm so they could see pigs and goats etc through the fence which was quite cute.
• food cooked on site - mix. City school was definitely mass produced/delivered and heated /prepared on site. Most schools in the area had the same weekly menu. Village school has a chef who makes everything on site. It's lovely..
• 3 school trips - no. City school did 2, village 1.

We considered private but loved the vibe in our city school, was such a fabulous community and with the green space and farm next door etc it felt far more rural than it was. Loving the class sizes and staff ratio in the village school but has notably less funding/stuff going on.

Private school here:
-Early drop off from 7:30, normal drop off 8.15-8.30.
-Class sizes of 12, think they’d prefer it to be more like 15 though. 1 Teacher and 1 TA per class. Phonics are taught in ability groups made up of kids from all 3 of the reception classes.
-Classes are pretty calm.
-Obviously yes paper books, ipads are for year 5 and up.
-No forest school but they have weekly outdoor learning in reception.
-Sport twice a week in the pre prep, 3 times a week in the prep with one term of swimming lessons a year (the 3 classes get a term each) until year 5.
-In the pre prep Clubs until 4:30 then wrap around until 6. In the prep 5.30 finish as standard then optional clubs until 6.15.
-Yes we can email the teacher.
-Outside space is decent for London but there’s no veg patch.
-Food is very good/cooked on site if a little old fashioned- there seems to be a lot of cake and there are food based rewards e.g. house feast for the house that gets the most points.
-At least 1 trip every half term.

So yes I’d think you’re getting a pretty typical private school ‘experience’ except what’s up with the 5.35pm finish? Do parents not need to work to pay the fees 🤣

My DD’s primary in inner London does all this except the small class sizes. Most of it seems pretty standard to me.

Mine are in a small state primary in a village.

• Gate opens 8.30am for an 8.45 start. Head always waiting by the gate to greet each child by name, would probably like to be greeted back but no drama if not.
• Most classes around 20 pupils with 1 teacher and 1 TA. Some mixed-year classes.
• Class environment very variable depending on which class
• forest school once per term
• learns to read with actual paper books! No tablets. The teacher or TA reads with them a couple of times a week.
• PE 1x per week. They had a temporary swimming pool for 4 weeks earlier this year and the whole school did lessons. Not going to happen every year though.
• clubs until 4.00 most days, things like art or sports
• after school care till 5.45 for around £12 per child
• Absolutely no direct emailing the teacher. Can email a message via the school office or make an appointment to see teacher (again via the office). Randomly collaring the teacher at dropoff or pickup for a chat is heavily discouraged.
• lots of outside space so the children help occasionally in the vegetable garden etc
• OK quality food cooked on site
• 1 local school trip (e.g. local places of worship) and one bigger 'fun' trip per year

I would say the biggest difference sounds like it is level of teacher contact and individual feedback. My DC went to a private nursery right up until starting Reception - it was a big drop in the amount of updates you get on your child and some parents found the adjustment very hard.

Sounds great to me!
What stands out is the small class size and excellent staff to pupil ratio.
In my kid’s school reading to teacher/TA once a week, other schools instead use a reading/comprehension program on tablet which just isn’t the same thing I feel!
Clubs everyday sound great too.
Ultimately state schools have tight budgets and have to cut corners unfortunately. (I have noticed academies try to generate money through frequent events but in an area where most pupils come from low income families I thought this wasn’t fair on parents.)

We are in Surrey and frankly, reading your list made me laugh. Because although the local primary schools around here are generally very good and rated excellent by Ofsted etc, no, this is NOT the experience that our children get.

• starts 8.20am, senior teacher always waiting by the gate to greet each child by name, and expects to be greeted back by the child
• Start is later but yes, teachers are at gate and greet them.

• writing, maths, phonics etc in his class of 12 children that has 1 teacher and part time TA
• Yes to curriculum. hahahaha to class size. Our school has a TA in every class more or less full time, but that's quite unusual and our school offers very little in the way of extras because they spend all their money on TAs.

• calm class environment, no disruption
• I don't actually think this is a private/state school issue but the make up of the children at the school. But yes, with smaller class sizes and a more selective process for accepting children, private schools are probably less likely to experience disruption
• forest school once per week, including things like making a campfire
• Not a chance. I think some local schools probably do forest school now and again, I doubt it's consistent as this. Our school is so terrified that the children aren't allowed to use knives so campfires seem unlikely, even if they did have forest school.
• learns to read with actual paper books! No tablets. The teacher or TA reads with him most days

Yes. although I am a fan of some tablet/computers in classrooms personally.

• sports 3x per week, including swimming, dance and PE

PE and some "dance". It's not particularly impressive. We are lucky to have fairly good faciilties though - nto all do. Twice a week only. With some children getting a 3rd session.

• club until 4.30 every day, things like art or sports
• hahahahahahahahaha. Even state primary schools aroun dhere that do offer clubs, a child would be able to access it a few times a week, at most. Our school offers almost nothing (see above re TAs)
• after school care til 5.35 if you want it. Colouring etc
• Paid for ASC yes, fairly high quality. can be difficult to get in.
• a lot of contact with the teacher. If I ever have a question I can email her and she replies within a day, or can meet with her, or she will proactively email me to check something or make an observation (eg she wrote to suggest he might be ambidextrous)
• Our school not so much but I think some state schools are better at this than ours is.

• lots of outside space so the children help occasionally in the vegetable garden etc
• We have decent facilities but not extensive.
• good quality food, cooked on site
• Average food, cooke don site. You have to pay for it.
• 3 school trips this year
• One a year. Although there are occassional other trips.

My son goes to a local primary, it's a small one in Scotland. School starts at 9 but it's a 'soft start' so teachers at the gate from 8.59, usually head teacher, deputy head, 1 other teacher and a TA. My son has ASD and had health issues in the past so if I need to pass info I pass to one of them, things like, 'didnt sleep well, may need some quiet time later, struggled getting ready for school, is worried about something in class, needs medication etc. It's noted and actioned.

He has physical reading books, reads to teacher or TA daily, was behind for a time and so had extra literacy classes in a small group to help.

Sports twice a week, 'creativity' once a week which is in the gym hall doing an active but non sports activity like creative dance.

New topic every 4 weeks which is used across all lessons, so Egyptology was one, world wars was one. 1 school trip a year but also local outings to support topic work.

The main thing is how incredibly supportive the school is of his needs, he mainly loves school, academically in all top groups now which is incredible as he couldn't read a word or make sense of phonics I told he turned 7.

He gets a softer start due to struggling to transition into school, for him this looks like a desk by the class door with fidgets and Lego he and some others can use until register is taken. And you may think. Well what about the other children when these kids are out having a wee jaunt but actually anyone is free to join or move around the class freely while the register is completed. It doesn't feel chaotic at all anytime I've been in (I drop my youngest at the nursery onsite so frequently witness the early class stage)

His class is 19 kids, 1 teacher and 1-2 TAs shared between them and another class do depends on classes need on the day.

I can't wait to see how my youngest does

You could possibly get a lot of that in a state school, but it entirely depends on the cohort.

it’s not unusual to have one or two disruptive students, that can take up a lot of time of any ta or teacher.

a class that doesn’t have as much disruption, is probably quite likely to frequently have their ta pinched .

my class has guided reading groups , which means a group of five read to the teacher every day , so are all heard once a week. Ta reads with up to 4 of the lower ability students individually (on a good day) out door learning once a week

The fact that they are honest means it's likely more than "a bit" of an issue. Disruption in primary classes varies from school to school and many handle it differently. But in my experience it's hard to influence how well a school deals with this.

The question is impossible to answer because the quality of state primaries varies enormously.
You can either settle for what you have as your child is happy or spend lots of time going round each school in the areas you are prepared to consider but bearing in mind that schools change, especially if the head changes. Wherever you look it might be different in a couple of years time especially if it's in a MAT where the leaders swap staff around like some sort of sliding block puzzle.

What you likely won't get in state schools, however well run, are small classes and no disruption.

I’m also in Surrey and aside from class size, everything on the list applies to our state infant school. They don’t do swimming but they do when they go up to the juniors. Afterschool clubs every day, lots of choice, wraparound care that’s easy to access (I paid for Tuesday’s session when I got paid on Monday, still lots available). No tablets. Teachers respond to emails in 24h generally. Greeted by HT or DHT daily. Every class has a teacher and a TA. Woodland school every Tuesday. Maybe we are very lucky….

It sounds though you're paying for the calm, small group, learning environment.
My DC went to a local rural state primary school. There was 1 teacher and 1 TA for a class of 28. Mornings were spent doing curriculum work, lunch was packed lunch or fairly basic mass produced food. Afternoons were spent outside in the forest school, school farm or doing sport, music, creative work. Pick up at 3.30pm and after school club £10 a day for care until 6pm.
Teaching was frequently disturbed by challenging behaviour which without doubt, slowed learning down.