AIBU to feel like my ILs use my DHs niece to pressure me?

[IsolatedLemonTree]

This is about my ILs. Don't know AIBU is the right place to post this question - if it is wrong please let me know... maybe it can be moved? From what I have read AIBU gets a lot of traffic and many different topics are allowed?

Summary: I feel like my ILs use my DH's niece as a way to manipulate me into doing things they want and I want to know if you think this is normal/I'm being unreasonable to resist.

Long version:
There is a lot of friction between me and my in-laws. In particular my SIL and with MIL. I will try to give you as much information as I can in this OP so I'm sorry for the length of this post!

Me and my DH got married in April this year and have been together for 17 years. We met during freshers in our first year of uni. At the time, and probably right up until the wedding, my MIL was convinced our relationship wouldn't last. She didn't say this outright but there were many tells - I haven't included them in this post because it's a bit besides the point.

In our first year of uni when we started dating my SIL was going through a nasty breakup with her fiancee and maybe that influenced MILs attitude to me (this is what DH thinks) I don't know what to make of that personally... What I do know is that since day 1 MIL has treated me in basically a belittling way. Pity almost. But this is through a mask of friendliness... if friendliness had thorns... anyway, I should mention that I am not from the UK and that is visible from the outside, if I put it that way. In the 80s MIL might have described me as "exotic". Sometimes MIL makes up facts about my background when she talks about me to her friends. Again, I don't know if this influences it at all. I would never describe MIL as racist but I think her world view has a bit of "colonial superiority/pride" to it, if that makes sense. She often comments on people's ethnic background and will interrogate waiters and shopkeepers about where they are from and then tell them about when she visited their country or if she hasn't she will tell them she has visited a country nearby, that sort of thing. It's often visible that it makes them uncomfortable...

Although SIL had a lot of problems growing up she comes across as the favourite child. I don't know if thats linked or a common thing. Some of the issues in her life continued and in the end she conceived through sperm donation since she was running out of time/options. Since there is no dad, their family often need to coordinate supportive childcare, and sometimes ask us for help. When DH and I sold our last house, MIL tried to convince us to buy a house near SIL so that I could provide childcare for her daughter. I had been let go from my job due to restructuring (and was quite depressed) and MIL thought it meant I had a lot of free time on my hands. MIL never really asked me if this is something I wanted to do, instead she took for granted that I was a resource she/they could use. In the end this didn't happen but I'm adding this for context.

At the wedding SIL was very cold to me and I can't actually remember her speaking to me except twice. Once to ask repeatedly about dinner and dinner times because "she was hungry" (even though I had provided them with this information beforehand) and another time to say something which was upsetting (would rather not go into it). She was told off by someone overhearing.

During the dinner she didn't come up to us to congratulate us, even though many other people did. I'm glad she didn't because I didn't want to chat to her either, but it's worth mentioning that she didn't make the effort. At the same time, I don't know whether it is common to do that in the UK (it is not where I am from) so I don't want to be unfair to her about this. MIL did come up to us during the meal and so did some of our friends, so I was getting mixed signals in terms of what was to be expected from guests/family during the meal.

SIL seemed quite grumpy throughout. I started getting a sense that she was sending over her daughter to ask questions about the food in a very impatient way and very loudly, constantly, and mid-meal. Questions like: When is the food coming? What food will I get next? What is the dessert? When will I get the dessert? Why isn't the dessert here? Her daughter would run between our table and theirs, back and forth, with SIL watching, so it is hard to imagine any other scenario than that the poor girl was being told "go ask them when the dessert will be here" "ask them if it is ice cream" instead of being told to for example be patient or for the adults to explain to the girl what food was coming up next. The girl also came up holding part of her food in her hand and gave it to us. Lots of saliva on it. SIL was watching this unfold. I'm guessing this was the food she didn't like and didn't want to eat. So instead of SIL eating or disposing of it, she told her go give it to us (me and DH).

This meant that I was faced with a choice of either eating her food or be rude by not accepting this "gift" from a child.

Later when all the dancing was happening, I was chatting to friends outside the dance floor. Their family were dancing inside and it felt like they were sending her over to us to scream at me, loudly: "COME DANCE WITH THE FAMILY!!!". This happened about 4 times in a row, each time the same sentence. Again, this felt like one or more adults using a child to deliver a message and I felt very uncomfortable with it. I had to say no to her each time because the whole thing seemed engineered by an adult and honestly I was having a nice conversation and wanted to continue having it.

I also thought it was a very strange thing for a 3-4 year old to say. Not the dancing part but the "with the family" part. In my experience, children of that age are more interested in "come dance with ME" or "come play with ME" but I'm not an expert... we've got a dog and ages in dog years and doesn't speak English, so what do I know?!

I thought MUMSnet would be able to help me work out whether this is expected behaviour from a child this age or if I am right to suspect they used the child to send messages. I obviously feel quite bad because the outcome has been that this poor girl has been told no over and over again and I don't want to upset her. But I also don't want to be manipulated by the grown ups.

Am I being too harsh/unreasonable?

Well yes, if appetisers are served with the drinks then, yes, yes it is. There is access to something to eat pretty much throughout.

Given the age of your niece - whether she was egged on or not - the child herself won't have it given it a moments thought.

SIL sounds bitter
MIL sounds unfriendly, uneducated and back dated

I don't think either of them are fans of you - which works in your favour - because they sound like troubled, dull, borderline racists.

Don't interfer with DH's relationship with them but do your best to limit your interactions and don't hold any expectations. Treat them in the same way you would a work colleague known for gossiping - be breezy, be light, and remove yourself when you feel the conversation is slipping somewhere you don't want it to go.

This! What a ridiculously long post about nothing. You clearly don’t like SIL and MIL. Maybe they don’t like you either. But to hang on to a tiny thing a child said is crazy. Move away and just get on with your life.

Your mil sounds borderline/over the line racist.

If I had a 3-4 year old with me, I would bring snacks. The food may not be appealing to a child/not available when she feels hungry. Every time I go out with family, there are snacks/snap pots of fruit/cheddars/cheese strings or other food the parents can give to the kids, even if we're going somewhere with a café. Did the sil not do this? And why would she allow her child to persistently interrupt you at your wedding? That strikes me as a bit odd, it was your wedding day!

I can't believe I'm wasting my time on this but I also refuse to let you think you're right on this batshit point.

Standard wedding celebration timings in the UK:

1pm - ceremony (NO FOOD DURING THIS!)
1.45pm - ceremony ends, confetti, chatting, couple of photos, maybe a walk or drive to the reception venue (NO FOOD)
2.15pm - reception drinks with mingling and chatting, sometimes some music (often with canapes served)
4pm - seated for starter & main course (this is food, the main meal, the wedding breakfast)
5.15pm - speeches, obvs these can happen pre food or after pudding but we're just going general for now (this is while guests are sat down so there's no extra food, it's all just part of a normal 3 course meal)
6pm - dessert/pudding/coffees (food but again - this is part of the 3 course meal, it's not "food on tap")
6.30pm - cut the cake, maybe some more photos, the cake isn't usually served at this point, often it's whisked away to be sliced and shared later (NO FOOD)

7pm - evening guests arrive if you're doing that but otherwise, people head to the bar or mooch and mingle having a drink (NO FOOD)
7.30pm - first dance (NO FOOD)
7.35pm - DJ or band start, dance floor opens, party time (NO FOOD)
9.30pm - cake or evening buffet, BBQ, snacky things (this is food, it's an evening thing which no one's really hungry enough to do justice but it can soak up the booze if it's that kind of do and you're a drinking guest)
11.30pm - people start to leave, I've not been to a wedding where the couple leave before the party ends but that can happen (NO FOOD)
12 midnight - carriages, party ends (NO FOOD)

So you're looking at a fairly normal 2pm canapes (which not everyone eats, doesn't always happen, and it's not usually very much), 4pm 3 course meal, 9.30pm evening snack or cake.

That's not what "on tap" means. It means "available for use at any time".

Yeah they probably did send niece over but the best response is firm but kind. “I would love to dance sweetheart but I’m talking to this person right now so go back to your mum” “ah thank you for this food but I think you should give it to your mum”.

Your in-laws clearly aren’t your biggest fans, I wouldn’t assume racism (bit of race weirdness from your MIL obviously). It may have been they would have been equally unpleasant to any woman your DH brought home, some people are just like that. Keep them at arms length.

Yup same, I carried babybels around with me at one point. Allowing a small child (or sending one) to badger the bride at her own wedding is batshit.

There is usually food available to buy or eat from the wedding throughout this list you've presented. There isnt any breaks withoutbrefreshments for 3 hours at a time. You've proven my point, thank you.

No sane person would expect any adult to eat the leftovers of a 3 year old. Least of all the bride at her own wedding.

You would, however be expected to be kind to your own niece and find a way of nicely saying no. 'i'll have that later thank you', then never touch it.

Locked myself out of my email/the OP account on MN.

Hard to do the right thing on there... It's a long post because I didn't want to miss useful context so I wouldn't be told I was drip feeding info. Apologies either way for the long post?

Lexi, this really is thread not about how much food was available even though for some reason you want to make it about that/want to say its my fault for not having an open food bar for people to gorge on?

Don't take this the wrong way please but if you have a child and the child is too young to eat at set meal times then strikes me as your responsibility (not mine) to carry some snacks on you. No?

There were a handfull of other children there - same age - and they were all completely fine with the schedule as were their parents.

Looking back on it I found it hard to deal with this because there was a lot happening constantly that day and so many people coming up to speak to me/us. So it was hard to have enough time to process what the right response was. But you are right and that is how I should approach it in the future - thank you!

Edit: I definitely would not assume racism, would agree with your read on it.

If you invite guests to your thing, then you accommodate your guests. I'm not going to invite a bunch of elderly people somewhere I know there won't be sitting room.

The OP mentioned the kid going on about food and then said they served food every 3 hours, I think most 4 year olds would complain about that. So no, i don't think the in laws made the kid express their hunger. The long times between food prompted that

Equally, if you have a fussy child then you bring snacks with you. I wonder: do you have children? If you do, do you bring snacks with you places?

The child also asked about food during the meal. And you are wrong when you say "I think most 4 year olds would complain about that" because, as I said, all the other children her age did not complain and were busy playing together or eating instead of coming up to me to ask about food.

As I type this its making me wonder if the child actually has anxiety about food and perhaps that was the reason? This question is directed to other people since you're convinced it's all my fault.

And as I've said, people were fed every 3 hours. Your description and expectation of food at weddings is unlike anything I have ever heard or experienced before. I think that's all I have to say about this to you but I do really appreciate your input and perspective, it has been helpful.

That's because a lot of people are having weddings that they cannot afford to host properly. Of course I have kids and no, I don't walk around a wedding with a snack bag for them... I'd be absolutely humiliated if I hosted an event like a wedding and people had to bring a packed lunch because I couldn't provide enough food.

I don't know much about other people's finances or what they can and cannot afford, but your worry does not apply to our wedding.

I never said people should always carry a packed lunch, but it does strike me as a fairly good idea. I do think it's concerning that you don't carry any snacks for your children if they are so young they need to eat more often than every 3 hours. Sounds like you care more about other people and whether they can afford food at functions you go to (and the level of humiliation involved if you think they can't afford it) than about ensuring your children are fed as often as they need.

It’s weird that you’re giving this much energy to the possible motivations of a small child doing mildly annoying/fussy small child things. Your MIL doesn’t like you much — so what? Your SIL didn’t speak to you during your wedding meal. Those aren’t things I’d give a second thought to, tbh, and DH’s mother doesn’t much like me either (also met as undergraduates and got married much later) and has never made any secret of having preferred DH’s previous girlfriend, someone he couldn’t now pick out of a police line up!

Just live your life. Don’t ruminate over minor events. Not everyone will like you or behave as they think they should.

To answer your specific question yes what you've described is perfectly typical behaviour for a 3 year old, especially an over excited one in a special dress on a day full.of stuff she's not experienced before. So that's that.

Overall you seem to be fixing on the minutiae of stuff and focussing on a 3 year old child and as for "we've got a dog and ages in dog years and doesn't speak English, so what do I know?!" I have no idea what that means or is relevant to.

Your MIL isn't your biggest fan, well so many can say that. You and DH have been together 17 years, if she doesn't like you she doesn't like you, she's had long enough to know. Pull her up if she's ever actually racist to you other than that don't live in her pocket and get on with your own life with your DH as presumably you have been before this one day which seems to have become such a focus for you.

How awful that they would say that or make you feel like you're not good enough. Sorry you've had to experience that @CoffreFort and thank you for sharing your situation.

As I don't have children I don't know what is normal but your comment like many other comments has been helpful to put things into perspective.

I agree I've given it too much energy. I was trying to understand the best way of approaching it. Chances are everything that's happened over the years that I have not mentioned in this thread have had a cumulative effect and that it stressed me out on our wedding day and I read too much into it. Overall the day itself was like a fairytale and no amount of IL weirdness could have changed that.

Yes, that bit about the dog seems mad, but what I think the OP means is that she has no experience of young children, hence no idea how whiny and pester-y three year olds may be, because she only has a dog. OP, I’m here to tell you that overexcited three year olds, especially on special occasions, can be absolute monsters.

My DH’s three/four year old niece, usually a confident, sociable, stage-schooly child, was all excited to be a flower girl at her aunt’s wedding, loved the dress fittings, having her hair curled and put up and fresh flowers put in it (yes, it was completely over the top), had sailed through the rehearsals, knew the church well because the family went there every Sunday, was walking holding hands with her favourite older cousin who was a bridesmaid, loving the attention etc etc.

On the day she suddenly got spooked half way up the aisle, threw her flower basket down, burst into hysterics, and made a dash for the door, nearly knocking over the (tiny, four foot ten) bride. The video of the ceremony is accompanied by her roaring audibly from outside until one of her parents got her into a car, and all the group photos feature a bedraggled, scarlet-faced child with a thunderous expression.

Also, does it matter either way?

Sorry, it was meant as a joke. I can see it didn't land. I meant that I don't know anything about language development/age specific development for children because my dog ages in dog years and only barks!

I'm not really allowed to pull her up on things and DH wants to handle communications with her because he says we don't get along. He finds her very difficult to deal with too btw. I made this thread because we have to go on a family holiday to Cornwall with the ILs fam when school holidays start and I am stressed about being in a confined space with them and about being told to entertain the kids while they do family things/chat/drink.

So don’t go on holiday with them? I get on quite well with my ILs, despite MIL not being keen on me, but in 30 years DH and I have never gone on holiday with them. If asked, I’m quite upfront about knowing I wouldn’t enjoy it.

You sound a bit helpless or passive, OP? No one has you at gunpoint to go on a holiday you’re dreading, and certainly no one can ‘tell’ you to do childcare on holiday. Just say ‘Good one, guys!’ and keep doing whatever enjoyable activity you’re doing.

Are you a bit of a people pleaser? It’s fine to tell a three year old no, or to go back to her mother. It’s fine to say ‘Ugh, no, sweetie, I don’t want your half eaten chicken leg’. It’s fine to not go on a holiday you don’t want to go on.

If I give any pushback whatsoever MIL/ILs goes around telling people that I'm being difficult or that I'm "not keen" on things, or other negative (through inference) comments. I say through inference because if I could do the voice she does when she says things like this I think you would understand - it's said with a heavy dose of sarcasm and contempt.

I am probably a people pleaser to some degree yes but it comes down to my belief that family is important and that I should try to help DH have a good relationship with his family, even if that means I sometimes do things I don't want. As I type that out I can see how I have nobody else to blame but myself.

To answer your question: when I said I did not want to go, DH got very upset and said MIL had been planning this for a long time and we agreed to do it, among other things. I'm actually not sure why my presence is required it's not like we have kids that need to see their cousins.

But so what? You aren’t keen. That’s fine! Your MIL perceives you as ‘difficult’? Also her prerogative. Not everyone’s going to like you. (I’ve posted on here before about my own MIL making a photo album for DH’s 40th birthday with about 200 photos in it, and me (who’s been in his life since we were 19, therefore at every graduation, family wedding, big birthday etc etc, as well as being the mother of his child) in precisely two, one of them a graduating class photo of 100 people! It will have taken a lot of work to find that many photos I’m not in!😃) Someone else’s negativity towards you is their problem.

It’s certainly not your job to bustle about managing your DH’s relationship with his family either. His circus, his monkeys. No feuds necessary, either, obviously . Just centre yourself. Approach invitations, requests etc with a ‘Is this something I am happy to do? Does this work for me?’ approach. Step back. Your people-pleasing has got you precisely nowhere in terms of being liked. It never dies.

"It will have taken a lot of work to find that many photos I’m not in!😃"

Really funny and so true! However I'm sorry that happened, that too sounds really awful. I'm going to try to find the thread and read it.

Interesting you mention photos. My ILs insist on having me/non members take their photo at events and for it to only be their core family (with grandchildren). I've always found their inability to be inclusive rather strange. One time my SIL's (not the same SIL) husband took the photo and I had to stand next to him since I too was not really part of the family, apparently.

Let's say I decide to not go. What do I do about DH feeling like he's stuck in the middle or getting upset about it, like I'm letting him down? And do I give a last minute cancellation, do I tell them I don't want to go or do I make up a reason? I don't want to lie tbh

I believe that he and his siblings are a bit emotionally underdeveloped because they've had such weird parents who never really say they love them/they're proud of them so they do what their told/seek approval through compliance.