AIBU to think most people don’t realise reducing meat will not save the planet and may in fact cause more climate issues.

[TreeLoverr]

I’m a farmer, but before you dismiss this as bias, I don’t have any livestock so do not sell meat.

We own a purely arable based farm and pretty much exclusively grow grain and cereals.

My family had beef cattle on the farm , but they’re sold the heard years before I was born due to lack of profits.

The reason why I say this is due to a few reasons. The soils on our farm are suffering. Especially due to lack of organic content. The soil must be replaced with actual organic matter (like in a garden, it erodes over time and you have to put compost on)

When most farms operated by rotating grazing animals this happens naturally. The grass putting roots down also stops soil erosion, and the dung from the animals too. There are other things that we are just beginning to understand like the important impact of hooves trampling and the delicate micro biome that the cows eating and pooping replenishes.

Just putting dung onto the fields is not enough. Firstly the nutritional balance gets off kilter very quickly (in a way that doesn’t really happen with livestock rotation) and secondly it is difficult to get hold of when you don’t have your own animals.

The alternative to this is fertiliser. Fertilisers are made using fossil fuels. This is far worse for the environment than animals on grassland.

Many farmland is not suitable for cropping. Too hilly/steep, rocky etc. but it is suitable for raising animals, turning otherwise wasted land into human food.

When we have a bad harvest, it often means the crops are not suitable for human consumption. This is then sold for animal feed, turning this into food further down the line as we can then eat the animals. This crop would otherwise have to be destroyed or just left in the field.

But what about greenhouse gases you might be wondering? Animals are PART of the natural cycle. They are not the same as greenhouse gasses released during fossil fuels being burned. Greenhouse gasses are trapped in the soil and plants that they eat, they release and the plants absorb again. plants literally live off carbon dioxide and methane.

How we farm can absolutely negatively affect climate change, but grass fed British beef and lamb is actually important to our ecology and an important food source in order to maximise our environment without destroying it.

Define these "right conditions".

I'm sure beef from Knepp, for example, is carbon neutral. I'm sure it's also prohibitively expensive, and that 99% of British beef eaters are not eating meat reared in that way.

And there you have the answer to your whole conundrum. The model you’re advocating for is not profitable and incompatible with modern food economies.

As you well know, farmers are not running soil regeneration charities.

but what you’re also saying is you’re taking land and conditions that aren’t ideal for growing human grade crop, and putting it in to livestock feed instead. (Even as you say you’d prefer to grow human grade instead). So, could I gently suggest that the model you’ve been forced to work with is just as much, if not more, the problem as growing crops for human consumption? (I say more, because there’s no calories coming directly off your land, it has to then be consumed by livestock until it’s ready for human consumption, with the associated high carbon/cost inputs which we’ve discussed at length upthread).

Efficient meat production is better the inefficient meat production.

No- or massively decreased - meat production is better than meat production.

The premise of your thread is simply wrong. That plenty of people listen to misinformation on the internet is not news, nor something you should take pride in.

And, FWIW, I'm not vegan.

No I am not. It is too expensive as we would have to pay a new person to come and do it and the profits are usually small so for us it’s not worth it. We may bring in some nomadic farmer that we do not have to pay (ie they own their own herd and no land) there are plenty of farmers who already farm livestock and want to continue to do so.

where we live is highly suitable for cropping and there are mostly crops around us. Even land suitable for crops is not exempt from normal farming issues that we expect that means the end crop is not human grade.

what do you think we should do instead as were literally implementing all the things that you think will help and our farm is the perfect farm in the eyes of vegans as far as we can make it.

except of course we aren’t throwing away the crops that aren’t for humans and selling for animals instead. We always try and choose varieties for humans first. Sometimes the varieties that are for humans are struggling with diseases etc, so we may try a variety for animals for a few years to try and get on top of disease etc.

I gently suggest that you think you have all the answers but don’t know the ins and outs of a farm and WHY the choices are made and it seems you are dismissive of my explanations.

I’m not sure where I said we shouldn’t try and improve farming and implement rewilding schemes. We need a multi pronged approach to ensure environmental protection and food production and soil regeneration.

methods of carbon neutral farming include rotational grazing, obviously grass fed as much as possible, mixed meadows, and even things like aenorobic digesters for the manure.

there are so many things instead of axing meat production.

just saying I’m wrong doesn’t make it so. As usual you don’t have anything to actually say about my points.

You are making the choices you make based on the land you own, and within the framework, limitations and consumer-pressures of the wider agricultural system of the UK.

You might be making all the right decisions for your personal circumstances.

But, ultimately - if would be an absolute undeniable good for the environment if demand for meat and dairy dropped.

It would also require less farmland, and less farmers. I very much understand that is a distressing prospect for mutli-generational family farms.

I keep responding to your points, you just don't like the answers.

no you just make generic statements that aren’t actionable or based in anything grounded.

the first option you give sounds like a good idea and I hope it’s something you’re able to explore! I’m not dismissing that.

im also aware that you might plan a crop for human consumption but other factors through the growth season means that it ends up in livestock feed.

I don’t know what you should do - I’m not here to tell you how to run your farm. I’m just asking questions about the logic you’re bringing to the conversation, and asking how you’re reaching the conclusion that cattle farming is carbon neutral, which is well established not to be the case.

The alternative you suggest in your next post with meadows etc all sounds really lovely, but as you’ve said yourself, is simply unaffordable to run. That’s the bottom line - it doesn’t pay. it’s not how cattle rearing is done today, and therefore it’s disingenuous to say cattle farming today is currently carbon neutral and is therefore the climate solution you want it to be

I completely fully agree with you that farming and our care for the land needs to be system-based in its view, have a clear view of the science — both in terms of crop science, climate science, biodiversity and regeneration alongside economic and cultural pressures. At present, farming in the uk is barely sustainable for farmers or land - for the reasons you list relating to soil and affordability and many others.

but cattle are not the silver bullet you’re asking for, and as many others posters have shared, significantly reducing the intensively farmed cattle for dairy and beef would have a significant positive impact on environments. That doesn’t mean eliminating beef and dairy altogether but it does mean being honest about the cost of the system, and the feasibility of the alternative that you are suggesting.

Our style of farm IS the reality of how farms without livestock are and will be in the future if we reduce or get rid of all livestock. This is what you want, and I’m telling you it’s not viable in the long term.

if you don’t want to listen that’s on you.

you are literally arguing with me when our farm is the model of what you want all farms to be.

we have solar panels, we use low till, we use cover crops, digestate waste, we use legume rotation and more. It is not enough.

Absolutely agree with you, so much crap and misinformation has been lumped out by the vegan lobby, but I do think things are coming back to a more reasonable view.

Regenerative farming, which is basically the traditional British method of mixed farming techniques, is undoubtedly way the best for the environment as a whole. That's what we should be doing in this country, so long as government realise that our farmers need proper support to do this.

We should certainly not be eliminating our livestock farming just because it's an abomination in the US. The exception I would make to this is the massive cheap chicken factories which are a disgrace, and some pig units there is room for improvement.

I can recommend Sarah Langford's book Rooted.

Which is what you yourself are doing in your OP.

You aren't arguing "farming can be made greener" - which it can - you argue that reducing meat intake is not a good thing (or maybe even harmful).

On this page, you're talking about carbon neutral farming, something that has no viable path unless it involves a decrease in meat production.

One more time....

I am not arguing about you and your farm.

I am arguing with your proposition that reducing meat consumption would not be good for the environment.

You seem to be struggling in differentiating between reduction and elimination, and/or are ignoring the fact that the country does not need to maintain the same raw number of livestock in order to deliver the practices you keep championing.

Soil is much more than fertility plus dirt. You can have very healthy soils which are low fertility.

It’s the tilling, loss of structure, murder of the microbiome and organisms which live in the soil. It’s a living breathing thing. Chemicals cannot replicate this.

And do not get me started on rewilding. God help your attention span if that happens lol 😂

I just remembered that groundswell is on this week: https://www.groundswellag.com

has anyone been? I’d like to go but find it quite costly.

Pertinent article in the Guardian yesterday:

www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/jul/02/huge-rise-mammals-poultry-livestock-farming-worldwide-nature-report

Sadly another article that will fall on deaf ears.