What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

I dont know OP; DDs secondary was rated badly by offsted, so they brought in a head to fix things. 2 years later there was a mania about keeping your blazer on no matter how hot it was but no improvement in anything anyone would care about. Dd was a top student, I pulled her out as bullying was not improving. Now they are tightening up on home ed im fucking glad i have no more kids in the system.

What “total nonsense” reasons are children being expelled for?

The stories I read on here tend to show the opposite, repeated rule breaking leading to only relatively minor sanctions.

I’m N Irish living in England now (moved here as an adult) and my son is just finishing year one of uni now.

I agree with you, English schools do seem to me to be ridiculously strict in general, especially at secondary school level and especially on attendance. They were fairly strict back in my day too (I went to a grammar and so has my son), but the emphasis was definitely more on behaviour (and uniform), than attendance. In England now the focus seems to be very much on attendance as a primary metric.

In my eyes that’s primarily due to pressure from OFSTED, which then affects things like placement in league tables etc. But also I do think a lot of teachers and heads are genuinely very convinced by the stats around higher school attendance basically having better educational outcomes. And this may well be true, and not simply correlation (honestly I haven’t looked deeply into the stats myself!), but I do think sometimes schools are in danger of forgetting that every child is a unique individual and that as an individual they may well defy the statistics etc.

Honestly, secondary school here was a complete nightmare for my son (who has ADHD and potentially autism also awaiting assessment). And for me as a parent. Especially around GCSE time when I was literally so stressed by dealing with the school and worrying about my son, that I ended up badly burning myself by accident by spilling a pan of boiling water all down my front when cooking while exhausted, sleep-deprived, and upset. My son was at one of the top rated schools in the country, a superselective grammar school as he is extremely bright. Unfortunately I would say this school is not very used to having children with SEN and did not support him properly in this at all. He was very much viewed as being lazy, never cracking open a book outside of lessons, uncaring about deadlines, and generally having an attitude problem and an allergy to hard work, when the truth was he would spend hours and hours at home unfortunately achieving very little when trying to do homework due to overwhelm and “freezing” because of anxiety, he struggled with time management and would genuinely forget homework deadlines etc. The one thing I will say that school did correctly was decide not to keep handing out detentions to him all the time as they were having zero effect on remembering, doing and handing in homework anyway. OK now I think of it they also dealt with an incident where my son punched another student well, in that they did not exclude him because of it, having witnessed what had happened and acknowledging that his behaviour was generally unproblematic and this was very out of character for him; he was very much literally backed into a corner and the other child being persistently aggressive to him and not backing off. He still got detention of course which I did not have a problem with, even if my son viewed that as a terrible injustice 😂

Anyway, I feel the ethos of that school was very much to focus on the very exceptional children already sitting at the top of the class and boost them to unusually spectacular heights, while expecting everyone else to keep up. But anyone who fell by the wayside for whatever reason was pretty much just left by the wayside and written off. Which I had not really expected, having attending secondary school in N I in the 1990s, and being that child always at the top of the class (I’m now a doctor), the focus was very much on trying to help the students who were struggling to catch up with the rest of the class and not students like me at all. Again, I feel this ethos is probably driven by the league tables, students of that school have had some remarkable achievements, but ultimately I felt my son was almost “managed out” of the school. As despite having one of the highest scores in the whole county for the eleven plus, due to SEN which was not well supported or considered, this was not necessarily being reflected in his grades. It didn’t help that he had to drop most of his favourite subjects at GCSE and choose only one of music, art or drama which were his favourite subjects after maths, but continue with some subjects he actively hated and was completely disinterested in. And was eg due to GCSE exams he was not allowed to participate in the school’s summer musical production which he absolutely lived for, and it having been cancelled 2 years before and almost cancelled before being held in a car park the year before due to COVID. He did end up having a degree of EBSA, which I tried very hard to push back against, and he did end up crossing the threshold for “persistent absence” at one point due actually to a combination of having to isolate for COVID when that was still a thing, plus having COVID again when that wasn’t a thing but being genuinely unwell with it with high fever etc, plus having to have some complex intensive dental work at a regional tertiary dental hospital many miles away. Which annoyed me as I was treated as an irresponsible uncaring mother by the school at the time. And he was just absolutely miserable at school then.

Anyway, I moved him to another slightly less prestigious grammar for sixth form (very much a combination of his being “managed out” by the original secondary school at that point as not achieving a handful of 9s for GCSE and bringing the average educational attainment for his year down, and both myself and my son feeling we literally just could not cope mental health-wise with another 2 years at that school). Which made a world of difference. He was pushed far less hard, was better supported for SEN, and was significantly less stressed at school, seemed to have a lot less homework and a lot more free time, and as a result he enjoyed it more, and achieved significantly better than at GCSE. He’s now taking a Maths degree at a really good uni and absolutely thriving there. Interestingly the support at uni level for SEN is impressive, and so much better than at school age. Which seems mad to me!

I agree when I was at school, if my parents needed to take me out of school for a day here or there for a special family celebration etc it was absolutely no problem because I was achieving well at school academically and the teachers knew I was conscientious enough to make sure I’d catch up on anything I missed. Though I think I remember being told to just keep it quiet that they’d said ok 😂

I was never able to take my son out of school for any reason, including at primary school level, with one notable exception. Effectively my abusive ex was able to use the strict school rules and English ethos on attendance to control me and my son via the family court system and make sure I was unable to visit relatives abroad including for big important family events, or in other parts of the UK with different school holidays etc. I still resent that I didn’t have that opportunity, and he’s 19 now! At secondary to be honest especially in GCSE years and beyond I wouldn’t have dreamed of asking though, especially as my son definitely would NOT catch up on whatever he missed despite his best intentions.

The only time I ever really put my foot down over it all was when he was around 8 years old and my brother was getting married in another country (his fiancee’s country of origin). I basically asked for a meeting with the head and begged her personally to reverse the decision not to approve the leave in term time, and explained that unlike for many families, the actual effect of her not approving the leave would not be that it was annoying but ultimately ignorable if you are happy to pay the fines involved from the council (lots of families did this as even taking the fines into account it was often still significantly cheaper to go on holiday in term time). But that we actually would not be able to go, as the court would not back us against the school’s wishes if my abusive ex disagreed, which he would do just to control us and damage my relationship with my family.

She was an amazing head and my son was super happy and achieving brilliantly well in primary school with no SEN diagnosis or support because the school naturally adjustes to whatever he needed as an individual to really thrive eg his form teacher would sing his name when taking register and he would sing back (which cut down on the disruptive singing at other times!) Happily the head did very unusually agree to approve the leave on that occasion, and I remain forever thankful to her, as it made the world of difference to be able to go, especially as my brother has since unexpectedly collapsed and died.

I am genuinely so relieved and so much better able to cope with other life stresses now my son is done with secondary school in England. Thank God genuinely! I’ve actually been super surprised at quite how much I’ve noticed the reduced stress on me as a result, and improvement in my mental health, despite being a bit lonely without him as a single parent (he’s living away at uni). But after my experience I would 100 percent NEVER send my child to Michaela. I found her approach interesting, so have read a few articles about it including interviews with her. And it sounds like a dystopian authoritarian nightmare to me. I loved school because I took genuine delight in learning for learning’s sake, and even I would have absolutely hated it if I’d attended a school like that and genuinely think I’d have ended up depressed. They aren’t even allowed to speak to or walk next to their friends in the corridor between classes, but have to walk single file in silence, how miserable is that?!

The skirt length was a major battle in my day! 😅 These days, a lot of schools have gotten around that by having the girls wear kilts, or near ankle length skirts with lots of pleating. So if girls want to roll up their skirts, they end up with a huge Michelin Man style bulging tyre around the waist! They would have a choice of that, or trousers. To be honest, how do you expect parents to stop their child rolling a skirt, when they’re not physically with them all day 🤷‍♀️

English schools are anything BUT strict in their majority.

Just go on any English Parent Expat forum, and see how they are horrified to discover that many other school systems are a lot more rigid and don't spend anywhere near as much time mollycoddling parents and children.

People like to complain in England about the RULES and HOMEWORK, when really there's barely the minimum. They just don't want to parent, and want their precious little darling to be excused from anything.

Just check, English parents now living abroad (which can be anywhere) and dealing with other school systems. In England people think it's strict because of the uniform, or what's left of them

The more boundaries are pushed and the more that liberties are taken by pupils and parents, the stricter school rules become. Then you get the vicious circle of knee jerk reaction rules being broken, and more ridiculous rules being introduced to counter this.

With two sides to every story, I’d love to hear the view of the school on some of the school related AIBUs posted.

I wonder about this too as I'm in Ireland and I have family in the UK. They were shocked when I said we were getting a good deal on a holiday as it was during term time.

We told the teacher, agreed to double up on the homework and it was fine I think, not great obviously.

I'm a qualified teacher (older kids though) and one of my favourite parts of the training was learning about different countries approach education.

But there is no straightforward answer here because too many variables; the local teaching standards need to be aligned for local parenting approaches.

I am a soft touch parent and my kids are perfectly well behaved at school and in other peoples homes / in public. They can be total nightmares to me and their dad sometimes but they are working through being tweens / teens so, although it is not tolerated, it is understood.
I think discipline where needed - pointless rules and discipline just makes ALL discipline pointless.

If they feel they are going to get in trouble for everything all the time - why bother trying!

ive just googled SLT and it comes up as speech and language training - this doesn't make sense

Senior Learning Team

Sausage Lettuce and Tomato, as in the sandwich.

Or perhaps, given the context that poster meant senior leadership team.

Yes I did Education Welfare Officers. What name do you give them?

Possibly, but it did work with water charges. 😉

The Govt. tried to bring in charges for water and the people weren’t having it. Water falls from the sky and is free, so there was a mass refusal to pay the charges. Within a couple of years, the govt. backed down and in Ireland, we don’t pay anything for our mains water. 😁

Honestly, if only we could be so outraged by other things in Ireland. The fuel protests recently were the only thing close to the mass protesting the water charges saw, even that didn’t achieve much. We could do with taking a leaf out of the French book, they do know how to protest 😅

Because we have a parenting crisis in this country where a huge number of parents have just stopped instilling respect in children, creating chaotic and entitled young people. Schools are in disarray and they’re trying to grapple with it.

So pleased you’ve raised this OP.

I’ve been saying this for years. I’ve lived in another European country, where schools were much more relaxed, though kids were of course expected to behave respectfully and take school seriously. The ‘zero tolerance’ approach of English schools appears to have few benefits for pupils.

My own English comprehensive secondary (1970/80s) was fully in inclusive. We had kids with all types of disability and the school accommodated their needs. And we were expected to as pupils.

As for strict uniform rules, most European countries, as well as most US schools, don’t require uniform in state schools. It tends to be a British colonial thing.

ThrallsWife

Schools making parents spend excessive money on uniform, will get parents backs up. I was forced to buy a branded skirt for 2 terms at the end of my dd2s schooling - it caused resentment.

Unfortunatley I see schools do this a lot, over the small things and then when a child is bullied they don't step up.

This causes resentment and when you telephone to get support from the parent - guess what that resentment is there.

I sent my dc to school with a broken leg, they called me to say to collect her as she had the wrong uniform on due to the broken leg just having been plastered and was still wet. I refused to pick her up, but it got my back up that the uniform with a broken leg was more important than getting her back to school in the afternoon for learning. Fortunately she was allowed to join in classes

Things like this are happening and do not grow relationships with parents and this is why when you phone for support - you don't get support as teachers have built a big wall of resentment.

“Why are English schools so strict?”

”Why are kids in England stabbing each other so often?”

Yeah in Finland you have to keep up with work even if off sick. In primary school my DD's teacher would send her books home with another student that lived nearby and in upper school she has her books at home anyway and is expected to keep up. When DS had surgery his teacher told me to come pick up his books so he could keep up. A different kind of strictness, not focusing on inconsequential things like what the children wear but on the important things, like what they do (or don't do)

It seems to be achieving:
Increasing absence rates
Huge numbers of children missing from education
Mental health problems
Worsening behaviour
Loads of kids not passing English and maths GCSEs

Best push on in the same direction though!

Also I just want to say that I personally enjoy lying by a pool in Crete on holiday 😂 And guess what, my son used to literally live for the kids clubs too! It’s not a crime, just snobbery to look down on that sort of holiday in my opinion. But yes I appreciate it’s harder to argue this is cultural enrichment justifying a term time holiday. However I still think there is value in a family holiday like that, if that’s what your family prefers, and I do think the importance of things like a summer family holiday in terms of preserving morale and good mental health and avoiding burnout etc. not only for the child but their family as well, is completely overlooked in favour of educational achievement. And especially at primary school level, it seems ridiculous.

Schools see parents and children as the enemy.

Yes schools have been diverse for years with no problems. My son went to a similar school, lovely atmosphere, stop blaming immigration for imaginary problems.

She's jumping on the spelling mistake of TUSLA which is likely an auto correct. Pathetic.

It’s a culture that started when Academies were first introduced in the Blair years. There was a belief that being uncompromising in the small stuff resulted in positive outcomes in the big stuff, like GCSE results. The trouble is that there’s a difference between clear and consistent expectations and a cruel lack of humanity. The moment a policy is created, it becalmed a bureaucratic decision, rather than a pastoral one. And therein lies the root of what Hannah Arendt, in much more serious circumstances, called the banality of evil.