What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

Spot on. 👍👍👍

You think schools should adapt to suit kids with no self-discipline who can't regulate themselves, rather than try to teach them self-discipline and self-regulation? Some of these big teen boys have the self-regulation of toddlers.

I think it is about how children are brought up in Ireland. From my albeit limited experience, young people seem to be much more polite and respectful, especially the young men. Meaning schools are not left to pick up the slack of appalling parenting.

I’ve been teaching in the same school for two decades. Yes, there was poor behaviour 20 years ago but the difference now is obvious, particularly post-covid. This is in a reasonably sought-after school with good results.

People who try to claim it’s normal don’t know what they’re talking about.

All it achieves is stressing normal parents out. The kids who's parents are crap are still missing school, and problematic parents dont give a crap for letters or fines.

I had to send my son to school ill a few times to only be called later in the day and told to collect him.

This... and especially the sentence "Young people leave education seeking external praise instead of having developed intrinsic motivation" sums it up.

My DD is at s top girls' private school, with a scholarship and bursary, and yes, there are privileged girls who attend thanks to well off parents, but it seems apparent the school has a "can do" attitude to encourage confident self motivated pupils who will have emotional maturity. Their eeducation results in pupils who have better leadership skills, rather than training workers who are looking for instructions to follow, rather than motivation to lead.

The difference is there, and yes, it is absolutely partly due to paying for the privilege, but I personally think even my excellent state grammar school wasn't that great. I was swot-like and others thought it was 'sad'. The teasing wasn't good.😐

Same in Scotland. No fees helps.

I am very wary of EEF research. I had cause a few years ago to look in detail, great detail, at their summer born research. It was very politically driven and didnt reflect other research at all accurately. The focus was only of the impact to disadvantaged (using a very narrow definition) children. Thereby immediately failing to consider non-disadvantaged children, who are equally entitled to an education that allows them to achieve their potential.

The creation of academy chains combined with a lack of funding in education has led to a huge increase in class sizes. Academies spend a lot of money on CEOs and advisers which leaves less left for the schools. There is a recruitment crisis meaning inexperienced staff are given classes of 30 plus to teach in small spaces with few tools for behaviour management. As a result these academy chains create a one size fits all behaviour policy... And for many staff and students it doesn't work

I’m Irish educated and my children are British educated ( state primary and private secondary) and I think the best British education is better than Ireland and the worse here is far worse . Which is to be expected I suppose .
alrhough my niece teaches in a DEIS school in an area of high deprivation in Dublin and it sounds grim.

Yes if England was measured on its own, rather than the UK, we would be right up there nearer the top. If Ireland was measured with NI, their ranking would slide.

How do they compare when it comes to mental health though?

I don't think anyone objects to disruptive behaviour being punished.

The objections are usually to nitpicking over uniforms -or, as has apparently happened in a local academy Trust, soon to feature on Panorama I hear- being sent to isolation for turning up without a pen.

I think this changed for the vast majority of schools a long time ago. My DC wear white shirts and ties with a logo jumper at primary and blazer at secondary, black trousers and shoes - definitely not trainers. They’re not lax on this whatsoever, even down to the style of trousers (not allowed to be skinny fit for example). It’s far stricter now than when I was at school in the 00s.

Also colleges have never enforced uniform, even sixth forms. They’re young adults, uniform would be kind of weird at that stage.

I’m not sure what point you’re making, NI does have strict formal uniform up until school leaving, England doesn’t.
Many schools in England do not wear shirts and ties at primary, you can’t compare a single school. On average uniforms in England are not that strict compared for other areas of the UK, that was the point I was referring to.

I'm in Finland, which is at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to strictness - no uniforms or even dress codes, no fines for missing school and holidays are often approved (and in my experience of my oldest's peer group, days off for things like shopping are even approved) but the students are responsible for catching up on their work themselves and they will have to, otherwise they'll fail some of the frequent tests and exams and risk having to retake the entire year.

Missing too much school without good reason will result in a social services referral and again the risk of having to retake the year (happened to one boy in DD's school twice and DD's ex friend will be retaking this year next year as she missed too much school too). DD missed a lot last year and the school really worked with her to get her back to school, counselling and medical care, and it worked.

So seems to me they don't need to be so strict here because if a student is too disruptive or doesn't bother trying, they will get a consequence they really won't want, which is being kept behind.

Well it gives them the ability to expel kids at the drop of a hat for total nonsense, that's a good thing, right?

(sarcasm, obvs)

Well yes, the threshold is much much higher which is kind of my point! And instances of parents actually being fined are so incredibly rare. In order for a parent to be fined in Ireland, all avenues for engagement with the school/social services need to have been exhausted first, they then need to be taken to court and prosecution attempted, and only then IF prosecuted are parents fined.

I am not from UK and I am baffled by the attendance thing too. Especially by the 100% awards. I know no one from when I was at school or now kids at school of my friends and family who would get it. No one. Because when the child is sick they stay at home! You get work send out to you. Obviously. People rarely took kids out for holidays and that waw usually discussed with teachers so the kid could catch up.
And no uniforms. Sounds similar to Finland above. There are lots of small tests through the year so you need to still keep up with learning so your grades keep up.

Harsh strict rules over inconsequential things are counterproductive. Battles over dress codes and inflexibility over attendance (for medical reasons or travel) just result in an atmosphere of conflict and shift the focus away from areas that really matter. Most teachers don’t care about nose piercings and what kind of socks the pupils are wearing, as long behaviour is good and pupils are learning.

The excuse that it’s preparing them for life in a professional environment is nonsense. I work in a ‘professional’ field, I have tattoos, piercings and non-natural hair colour, it doesn’t impact my ability to do my job. One if my children was a well behaved, polite, straight-A pupil but was pestered about a nose piercing and hair colour. They now have a degree, masters and a professional job (despite the tattoos and piercings ) . Another of my children was also well behaved but told off about a nose piercing and hair colour, but struggled due to lack of SEND support. They are now getting 2:1/1st marks at Uni.

It’s petty conformist nonsense, and needs to stop.

DD high school ridiculously strict. She often gets refused to go to the toilet even on her period. I’ve had to go to the GP just to get her a ‘toilet pass’ so she can go to the toilet! I said she has a blood test next week and teachers accused her of lying and I have to email the school reason why she will miss one morning for the blood test. One girl the teacher accused her of wearing false eyelashes and actually pulled at her eyelashes and pulled some of eyelashes out, it seems to be girls that are picked on constantly - isolation for makeup etc. detentions if 30 seconds late. It’s like a prison camp !

The sickness thing is crazy. With all due respect, I as their mother know best whether my DC is able to attend school. I won’t be sending them in on the behest of a teacher who thinks they know better, or for fear of fines or prosecution. What purpose does that serve? To make children resent going to school, resent their parents?

This. It is cultural. We cannot even expect an entire class on any given day to all have a pen to write with. No work is expected to be caught up. Everything myst be done and provided by the teacher. Parents take little responsibility, including for uniform. You tell parents skirts are too short and it isnt their fault, they cannot control the skirt length while the girls are at school. But fully unrolled they are not even mid-thigh. Parents are providing 15 y/o girls with age 10-11 skirts the creating local facebook groups to rage about schools insisting on tights due to skirt length.

Ooooh, see most Irish parents would wage a war against a school who dared treat our children with such absolute disrespect and in your case, actual assault. I honestly can’t explain the levels of rage a school would see from me if a teacher touched my child in that manner. And I’m sure most of us would pull our children out of the school, the school wouldn’t last long in Ireland I don’t think.

How have you not removed her?

There’s new guidance coming in in September I believe around uniforms. So hopefully it will be more affordable and less strict in terms of branding.