What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

When parents stop parenting something else needs to do more.

I wonder if there’s an inherent need by governments and head teachers to be “seen to be doing something”. Imposing and enforcing petty rules is often a way of achieving this. Issuing fines for non attendance is a way of the govt and schools being “seen to do something”, meeting targets. New head teachers have a habit of changing uniform rules to “make their mark” on a school.

And I think this might have been the reason behind many of the absurd roolz of 2020: a need by the govt to be “seen to be doing something”. Locking the playgrounds and plastering those vile markers on pavements about social distancing (the biggest oxymoron that ever existed) was a way of being seen to do something, distracting us from the parties which certainly did not happen in Downing Street.

A common saying amongst headteachers is that if you take care of the small things, the big things take care of themselves

a lot of the time it means SLT surrounding a child with no blazer while a fight goes on elsewhere, of course.

Probably the strictest school, Michaela, has got the best Progress 8 scores for the third year in a row.

(I think a lot of that will be becuase of the signalling, ie attracting the right parents, but still it’s impressive).

Re Ireland - I don’t know. Maybe the causality runs the other way: your parenting is better so schooling doesn’t have to be as strict?

It creates an atmosphere where children can learn, secondary school standards is the one thing that has improved in the last 20 years

Too many children in secondary schools have no self discipline and can't regulate themselves well enough, so schools have to be very prescriptive.

I'd send my kids to Michaela any day if I lived around there.

I don’t think English schools are particular strict in general. I’ve gone to school in NI, had a child in school in England and have children in school in NI and haven’t noticed a difference in their strictness. In some ways NI is stricter on uniform and things like that.
The main difference is no fines but that is set coming from the LA not the school.

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

Because attendance at English schools is absolutely shocking so there is huge top-down pressure from the government via Ofsted and other targets to improve it.

Schools don’t issue the fines, that’s not up to them either.

Ireland has had a very homogeneous culture until recently . Very few non English speaking kids etc so easy to do well. Things are changing there as the population becomes more challenging .

They’re strict because parents aren’t parenting properly, and too many kids these days are entitled little pricks.

I think it’s ridiculous too, I’m in Wales and it really isn’t the same here. I had to keep my year 6 DD off school Monday because she had a stomach ache and feeling sick (attendance is 98% so hardly ever off), all school said when I phoned in was “ah poor thing hope she’s better soon”.
Allowed 5 days a year for holidays (we never take it but nice to know if we needed to go to some family event it would be fine)

Then have to take other DD (secondary school) to orthodontist appointment every couple of months and never have any problems.

They’re allowed to wear black trainers and shorts in summer, no blazers, allowed to take their jumpers off if they’re hot without having to ask permission!

Both schools outstanding, good exam results. Nice friendly atmosphere

why are English schools like this?
No idea, but a lot of adults in schools and outside schools seem to dislike children and teenagers

What it achieves is an unprecedented number of anxious children.
As for Michaela, I think you need to dive a little deeper into their SEND data. As a retired teacher I certainly wouldn't send my child there

Because the Irish mentality is that school, education and qualifications are good so the level of discipline needed to maintain attendance is far lower? I have a lot of Irish relations and there is never any question of time off for holidays or not bothering to attend. My experience only, of course.

England has had a consistent upward trajectory in PISA ranking in recent years, significantly outperforming Scotland, Wales and NI (which haven't gone down the strict, traditional curriculum route). In my experience the strict approach has pros and cons for individual kids, but schools that do it properly have much less disruptive behaviour and a better learning environment.

I find it interesting too. My child goes to one of the best state schools in the country results wise, and one of the other close schools has one of the best progress 8 scores going. They are relaxed compared to some of the insane stuff I read online. Reading about children in isolation rooms and missing lessons and god knows what else.

But we live in an affluent area where the general behaviour is nothing like what goes on in other schools. Whether or not being really strict has a positive effect in other schools is a good question though.

I saw one school a few miles away in a rougher area has been taken over by academy and much stricter rules put in place. Their social media is full of parents of the kids who were doing fine at school but now hate it. Some are saying they’ll move their kids elsewhere now. Because they are being punished for silly little things which seems to be part of a bigger overall thing to punish all the trouble makers. And they now don’t want to go to school. It’s quite sad.

It’s a relatively modern thing which was brought in when Labour were last in government, added to by the Tories and continued by the current Labour government.

Essentially it’s down to some truly terrible reading of research. Apparently no one told any of these politicians that correlation is not causation.

Children who have more time off school are correlated with children who have lower attainment.

However time off school is also correlated with medical issues, chaotic home life and SEND. All of which INDEPENDENTLY would cause worse attainment.

A family holiday isn’t causing poor attainment.
Nor is a child who is having cancer treatment served well by insisting they are in school when they are unwell.

They should focus on ensuring families have enough money, supporting parental mental health issues, meeting children’s SEND and funding the NHS. Not penalising anxious children or stopping families having a few days off for auntie Jane’s wedding.

I would imagine everyone except the few people in power already agree.

Schools are under enormous pressure on attendance from OFSTED. They don’t set the fines etc.
I don’t think secondary schools are strict enough. I teach in one that has a good reputation and is in a nice area but some of the behaviour is absolutely horrendous.

My DDs are in their final years at secondary and I can’t wait to be done with the English school system. Im north European and although I love living in the UK , the school system is not something I’ll miss after next week.
Strict for certain things (uniform rules) but no staff around when kids are loudly swearing during lunch breaks making it feel unsafe for other students , and so geared towards rewarding children who fit the system. One of mine will receive yet another award next week (every year same kids), whilst the other one has had to overcome so much more and has never received any award.
Young people leave education seeking external praise instead of having developed intrinsic motivation.
1 more week and all apps can be deleted 🙌

I don’t know, when it comes to parenting I can’t imagine there’s a massive gulf between how Irish and English parents approach it is there?

You mean English schools because other parts of the UK don’t use Ofsted.

But if the system doesn’t suit ‘too many children’ then surely there’s something wrong with the system?

This is another thing! Fines being set by the local authority??? Like, if our local county council got involved in our children’s schooling, and tried issuing fines here they’d be laughed out of it. It’s just a preposterous thought!

Hear, hear

Why on earth do you think they should be allowed time off for holidays? Then they come back, they're behind and the teachers have to spend time getting them caught up and neglecting the rest of the class. Appalling behaviour by parents - and a terrible message to give the child.

This is a valid point, but more relevant to when I was in school (many many moons ago!) but nowadays Ireland is very multicultural. My son attends a rural secondary school (still quite large, about 700 students but in a village) and there are nearly 30 different countries represented amongst the student body.