AIBU to point out that the most important duty of the UK government is to maintain the defence of the country?

[KateSixer]

The shameful, cowardly and extremely short sighted decision of Starmer and Reeves not to properly fund the defence budget has led to the resignation of the Secretary of State for Defence.

Honestly it's traitorous.

Well the Tories decimated the Armed Forces during their tenure, Labour haven’t quite reached that level of neglect yet. They’re at least getting above inflation pay rises now.

YANBU. But, every penny must go on benefits because if we spend money on defence then ‘we have money for bombs but not feeding people’ etc

Nobody disagrees its important. But when we waste defence money on Ajax fighting vehicles that dont work, aircraft carriers that cannot be deployed. you might argue its not the funding but the spending thats the problem.

Benefits and net zero are way more important according to the Labour Party. Never mind that we are an island nation with Putin sniffing around and we have pretty much no functioning warships. It's a disgrace.

Where were you when the Tories hollowed out the armed forces?

The problem is that the only two ways of seriously increasing the tax take in the UK is to raise income tax or VAT (or both.)

Sir Keir ruled out the former because it would have been political suicide in an election that was Labour's for the taking. There are enough people claiming VAT is a tax on 'ordinary working people' that he cannot possibly raise that now either.

Everyone who voted Labour because they promised not to increase income tax is complicit in this, although if Sir Keir sees the writing on the wall it might be interesting to see what he does with VAT.

Oh behave. The Tories underfunded it for 13 years. Labour can't wave a magic wand and fix things in only 2.

Whataboutery and trying to deflect from the OP’s point by attempting to drag this into a partisan fight is pathetic.

The threads already starting to remind me of Starmer's repetitive "I won't be taking lessons from the Tories" line when he's cornered. A very weak man, not leadership material and a bullshitter about his priority of this country's people. Sooner he goes the better. Let's hope Burnham will make a better job of standing up to his back benchers. Oh wait, peas in a pod so redundant point. We are fucked.

I voted Labour (and regret it) but by continuing to blame the Tories, you make it even more likely that you will lose the next election in a landslide. It’s like you’re self-harming and want the destruction of your party - madness.

Let's hope Burnham will make a better job of standing up to his back benchers.

Burnham is a shapeshifting creep who'll promise anything to the audience in front of him without the slightest idea how to deliver it (or pay for it). He's had to row back again this morning, this time on compensating WASPI women.

Yeah because we have all the time in the world to wait. Its only the country's defence at stake. We are dealing with the here and now. Without defending the country's realm anything else is null and void.

I disagree, if Labour had had the guts to propose real changes to the way in which we are governed and how we are taxed (such as like abolish NI and increase IT, ensuring everyone pays tax equally on their income as potential option) then I’m confident many people would have got behind that, and their “landslide” securing 34% of the vote wouldn’t have been as shallow as it was.

Few people voted “for” Labour. They voted “against” the Tories, and he could have been far bolder before the election, and likely benefited from it from an electorate desperate for real changes. But he, Reeves, and others were cowards.

You're being obtuse. These things take time to fix.

True, but to fix them we need to be heading in the right direction!

Oh, you again.

Are we in imminent danger of being invaded. What do think that has changed so much that the defence of the realm is in such a perilous state.

I really must get my pearls restrung. All this clutching just isn't good for them.

It’s not pathetic, it’s pointless just pointing the finger at the current incumbent (who hasn’t been in power for long). The reason the MOD is in a mess is because of systematic failures over a decade, they also didn’t fix the other big pressing economic issues so to expect Labour to be able to pull a rabbit out the hat within a couple of years is entirely unrealistic.

The problem, as John Healey says in his resignation letter, is that Starmer has been making promises on defence spending that he is too weak to implement.

You don't really know how warfare works do you? No imminent danger 😆 🤣 we aren't going to get nuked overnight but there has to be a momentum of weaponry availability and adequate deployment, way in advance of a real threat.

It’s complicated isn’t it? Not a simple thing.
What is the definition of defence? Because I’m not wholly sure I can think of a good example of it since WW2.

Should we have an armed force to protect ourselves? Probably. But what counts as a defensive act?

Was - for instance - the last Iraq war or Trump’s current Iran war (which while not directly involved in we are certainly not wholly out of) defence? Or did those actually make us more vulnerable? Was anything that happened during the cold war and all those ‘hot wars’ that came from that (Korea/ Vietnam, etc) make us safer, be justified as defence?

What did the so called ‘War on Terror’ do except make us the target of attack?

Have nuclear weapons created a stalemate and stopped the potential for another world war or have they taken us to the brink and mean that any future world war (or even minor nuclear war) will end in total decimation?

Are countries that have a less aggressive view of defence (Switzerland for instance) less safe than the UK?

Looking back across centuries of history and particularly across the last 120 odd years I certainly think increasing one’s defence spending seems only to lead to increased vulnerability to being attacked and at war.

And what exactly are we defending? Our people? The outcome of wars across the centuries would suggest not. The power and wealth and ideals of those with the most? Arguably that’s exactly what wars protect and increase.

Rubbish.

I remember my DH being sent home from a night shift because planes were grounded, that night, never to be flown again. That was by David Cameron. I, also, remember him being on the redundancy list 3 times, but fortunately missing out, while men and women he’d served with for year were sent packing. Then they couldn’t recruit anyone, and those already serving were leaving in their droves.

I’m, also, old enough to remember DS1 joining up over a decade ago and his regiment being promised new vehicles imminently. They only recently got them and they don’t fecking work.

The Tories destroyed our armed forces, like they destroyed almost everything else. It’s going to take years and years and more money than anyone could imagine to even begin to fix it.

My 11 year old understands this concept. Does their martial arts training in case they need it in future. Too late to try to learn after the bullying starts.

Yes a very revealing resignation letter which should give cause for concern. For one of Starmer's remaining loyal ministers this speaks volumes. I don't blame him for jumping ship. He's too old to be fighting losing battles.

You're making it sound if the armed forces have been left penniless and completely defenceless. They're still working and doing their jobs. These things take time

As for my knowledge of warfare what makes you such an expert exactly. Or your knowledge of how government reviews and procurement work.

A drop in the ocean is what Starmer and Reeves are proposing. No wonder John's done a runner.