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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to point out that the most important duty of the UK government is to maintain the defence of the country?

106 replies

KateSixer · Today 12:52

The shameful, cowardly and extremely short sighted decision of Starmer and Reeves not to properly fund the defence budget has led to the resignation of the Secretary of State for Defence.

Honestly it's traitorous.

OP posts:
BIossomtoes · Today 15:55

He’s well liked now. He was reviled by the opposition parties yesterday and will be again if he ever rejoins the cabinet.

rellylivesthere · Today 15:57

InveterateWineDrinker · Today 13:13

The problem is that the only two ways of seriously increasing the tax take in the UK is to raise income tax or VAT (or both.)

Sir Keir ruled out the former because it would have been political suicide in an election that was Labour's for the taking. There are enough people claiming VAT is a tax on 'ordinary working people' that he cannot possibly raise that now either.

Everyone who voted Labour because they promised not to increase income tax is complicit in this, although if Sir Keir sees the writing on the wall it might be interesting to see what he does with VAT.

Yes Thatcher's Government lowered income tax and raised VAT.

rellylivesthere · Today 16:00

Anotherdayanotherexcuse · Today 13:14

Oh behave. The Tories underfunded it for 13 years. Labour can't wave a magic wand and fix things in only 2.

Maybe but Putins behaviour and the USA threatening to walk away from NATO means we have to make it a greater priority right now.

EasternStandard · Today 16:03

Genevieva · Today 15:52

That’s good to hear. I don’t actually know much about his political opinions because he keeps his powder dry, but I generally admire politicians who get on with their job quietly and don’t have an egotistical desire for the limelight. It certainly suggests a man who doesn’t jump on bandwagons and has an innate understanding of diplomacy.

Yep. He’s not a stirrer which makes his excoriating letter even more important.

Papyrophile · Today 16:03

Healey's resignation could hurt Starmer's authority even more than Streeting's resignation a fortnight ago, and the local government elections. It's very damaging.

rellylivesthere · Today 16:06

StandingDeskDisco · Today 15:03

Fundamentally disagree.
The most important job of any national government is to make sure the population is fed, housed, and has healthcare.

Exactly how this is done is a matter for debate, but it is far more important than defence.

Wow. That level of naivety reminds me of Corbyn's statement that if PM he would never use nuclear weapons.

KatiePricesKnickers · Today 16:10

Another step closer to a reform government.

MissConductUS · Today 16:18

anniegun · Today 12:57

Nobody disagrees its important. But when we waste defence money on Ajax fighting vehicles that dont work, aircraft carriers that cannot be deployed. you might argue its not the funding but the spending thats the problem.

There is certainly room to improve the procurement process, but that's just one part of the problem. The BA is less than half its size in 1990. During the Cold War, the RN had over 100 capital ships. It now has 62. Decades of stagnant or reduced funding have left it a shell of what it needs to be.

KateSixer · Today 16:20

Wow, I am surprised by the flippancy some of these responses. I'd like to make these points:

First, the primary duty of government is to keep the country safe from external threat. While this has been the case for centuries the nature of the threat has changed over time.

We may not longer be at such risk of being invaded but we might, for instance, be at the risk of our banks being hacked by Russians and individuals money being stolen en masse. Or our telecoms networks taken down. I think it's hard to imagine the disruption and panic that would engender. And it's not so far fetched.

Second, what prevents bad actor countries doing this to others are two things. Preparedness and deterrence. That we have taken steps to make it very hard to do these (and other things) and that the consequences that would befall the bad actor country in retaliation if they did it to us would be equally if not more painful.

As an American president once said "speak softly and carry a big stick".

Right now I worry that our preparedness is weak (remember M&S last year - imagine the same affecting every bank) and I know our deterrence is weak.

Third, one point that has not come up above is how under-investing in defence makes us more not less vulnerable to nuclear war. Nuclear war is supposed to be a last and unthinkable resort against existential threat. By reducing conventional defence, the point at which a threat becomes existential is reduced. So reducing defence spending reduces the nuclear threshold. Dangerous for all of us.

Fourth, some posters have been very ready to see this through a party political lens. It is true and equally reprehensible that previous governments have not dealt with this issue. What makes this particularly traitorous by Labour though, to use the word I used earlier, is that this was a set piece opportunity to correct previous errors and it looks like they are going to just duck it. I think that is a fundamental dereliction of their basic duty.

Fifth, other posters have pointed to waste in the MoD. I agree with this too. As with all our public services they have been asked to do too much and broaden themselves from their core mission.

I'd also readily agree that along with our other public services the MoD is hideously inefficient and atrociously managed. Fundamental reform is needed across the MoD, NHS, police, courts service and so on. Labour are ducking this too.

Finally, I have been surprised by there being so many comments about benefits. I don't want to turn this into a thread about benefits but it is very surprising to me that people don't see that the ability to have a generous benefits system is the result of having a strong, safe country that has a solid legal system, is attractive to business and a place where people want to raise their families.

The long term assured ability to choose to pay generous benefits is a consequence of a secure economically successful state. If we do not have both continued security and sufficient continued economic success to make it affordable then cuts to benefits are inevitable whether people like it or not.

Currently, factually, we certainly do not have the second of those things and are at risk of not having the first either.

Dangers ahead!

OP posts:
rellylivesthere · Today 16:23

Thinking about it, the nuclear deterrent is what has allowed our various Governments to cut back on the numbers of actual troops/facilities etc. They have taken it too far and we need to change our approach.

AmberTigerEyes · Today 16:26

We made a defence deal with the EU to pool our resources so we don’t need the full Santa wish list the defence secretary asked for but could not justify.

AmberTigerEyes · Today 16:29

We may not longer be at such risk of being invaded but we might, for instance, be at the risk of our banks being hacked by Russians and individuals money being stolen en masse. Or our telecoms networks taken down.

Is that not what MI5 (Intelligence services under the Home Office ) guard against? Not MoD?

BIossomtoes · Today 16:29

AmberTigerEyes · Today 16:26

We made a defence deal with the EU to pool our resources so we don’t need the full Santa wish list the defence secretary asked for but could not justify.

It is justified. There’s nothing wrong with the list as evidenced by the two natural fore runners to replace Healey having exactly the same view as him. The issue is paying for it.

AmberTigerEyes · Today 16:32

BIossomtoes · Today 16:29

It is justified. There’s nothing wrong with the list as evidenced by the two natural fore runners to replace Healey having exactly the same view as him. The issue is paying for it.

Government departments always wanting more money isn’t the same as justifying the need for more money. Tell me, has any part of the government ever submitted a budget calling for less money? The answer is never.

EasternStandard · Today 16:33

KateSixer · Today 16:20

Wow, I am surprised by the flippancy some of these responses. I'd like to make these points:

First, the primary duty of government is to keep the country safe from external threat. While this has been the case for centuries the nature of the threat has changed over time.

We may not longer be at such risk of being invaded but we might, for instance, be at the risk of our banks being hacked by Russians and individuals money being stolen en masse. Or our telecoms networks taken down. I think it's hard to imagine the disruption and panic that would engender. And it's not so far fetched.

Second, what prevents bad actor countries doing this to others are two things. Preparedness and deterrence. That we have taken steps to make it very hard to do these (and other things) and that the consequences that would befall the bad actor country in retaliation if they did it to us would be equally if not more painful.

As an American president once said "speak softly and carry a big stick".

Right now I worry that our preparedness is weak (remember M&S last year - imagine the same affecting every bank) and I know our deterrence is weak.

Third, one point that has not come up above is how under-investing in defence makes us more not less vulnerable to nuclear war. Nuclear war is supposed to be a last and unthinkable resort against existential threat. By reducing conventional defence, the point at which a threat becomes existential is reduced. So reducing defence spending reduces the nuclear threshold. Dangerous for all of us.

Fourth, some posters have been very ready to see this through a party political lens. It is true and equally reprehensible that previous governments have not dealt with this issue. What makes this particularly traitorous by Labour though, to use the word I used earlier, is that this was a set piece opportunity to correct previous errors and it looks like they are going to just duck it. I think that is a fundamental dereliction of their basic duty.

Fifth, other posters have pointed to waste in the MoD. I agree with this too. As with all our public services they have been asked to do too much and broaden themselves from their core mission.

I'd also readily agree that along with our other public services the MoD is hideously inefficient and atrociously managed. Fundamental reform is needed across the MoD, NHS, police, courts service and so on. Labour are ducking this too.

Finally, I have been surprised by there being so many comments about benefits. I don't want to turn this into a thread about benefits but it is very surprising to me that people don't see that the ability to have a generous benefits system is the result of having a strong, safe country that has a solid legal system, is attractive to business and a place where people want to raise their families.

The long term assured ability to choose to pay generous benefits is a consequence of a secure economically successful state. If we do not have both continued security and sufficient continued economic success to make it affordable then cuts to benefits are inevitable whether people like it or not.

Currently, factually, we certainly do not have the second of those things and are at risk of not having the first either.

Dangers ahead!

Yep but it’s not unusual for mn

BIossomtoes · Today 16:37

AmberTigerEyes · Today 16:32

Government departments always wanting more money isn’t the same as justifying the need for more money. Tell me, has any part of the government ever submitted a budget calling for less money? The answer is never.

I think if a minister has resigned over it and the two most obvious candidates to replace them are of exactly the same view, as well as the heads of all the armed forces, it would be wise to accept they know what they’re talking about.

Persephonia1966 · Today 16:43

EasternStandard · Today 16:33

Yep but it’s not unusual for mn

Yes but a lot of the measures that would be needed to prevent some of the types of attacks described don't come under defence spending. E.g. putting down more offshore cable, increasing IT security etc comes out of different budgets to defence. We need to spend more on defence as well. But the wider range of potential attacks mean it isn't just defence.

MissConductUS · Today 16:49

BIossomtoes · Today 16:37

I think if a minister has resigned over it and the two most obvious candidates to replace them are of exactly the same view, as well as the heads of all the armed forces, it would be wise to accept they know what they’re talking about.

And the Strategic Defense Review done in 2025 was conducted independently of the MoD.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10406/

caringcarer · Today 16:56

Labour waste toouch money on Netflix bloody zero. Never mind the rest of the world foes what is best for their own country. That and over generous welfare benefits will bankrupt the UK. No need for an above inflation pay rise for UC claimants. Government also spends toouch money on CS pension contributions. There should be a cap of 10 percent employer contribution.

EstoyRobandoSuCasa · Today 17:09

Year ago, I met our (then) MP at an event about nuclear missiles and asked him why, instead of renewing Trident, we couldn't have missile shields instead. He said that crazy as it sounded, it would increase the risk of us being attacked. Even though we would have the shields to protect us. I have to admit that I didn't really understand 😂

Papyrophile · Today 17:11

Miliband refused to be moved from Energy in the Autumn reshuffle. He's a zealot, and a barrier to change, although I would concede that net zero should create new industries and new jobs long term and that the UK is well-situated geographically to adopt multiple renewable energy sources: tidal power is an obvious one.

Agree that benefits increases should lag inflation, to incentivise work. And the cap on public sector pension contributions but maybe not as low as 10%. Many public sector jobs are not particularly well-paid because the pension is good.

TheShyPeachKoala · Today 17:13

Walkyrie · Today 12:54

YANBU. But, every penny must go on benefits because if we spend money on defence then ‘we have money for bombs but not feeding people’ etc

People can feed themselves!! It doesn't need the government to wipe the backsides of those who won't work. Stopping their benefits would focus their mind but our traitorous government are hellbent on securing their future voter base only.

MissConductUS · Today 17:14

EstoyRobandoSuCasa · Today 17:09

Year ago, I met our (then) MP at an event about nuclear missiles and asked him why, instead of renewing Trident, we couldn't have missile shields instead. He said that crazy as it sounded, it would increase the risk of us being attacked. Even though we would have the shields to protect us. I have to admit that I didn't really understand 😂

Edited

It's because any missile defense system can be overwhelmed by a large enough attack. If you have no ability to strike back, there's no deterrence.

Idstillratherbepaddleboarding · Today 17:15

Anotherdayanotherexcuse · Today 15:16

The RAF has chartered private aircraft as well as military transport to evacuate/repatriate and move it's people and families as far back as the 1960s.

Perhaps but they had clearly planned to use their own aircraft which you can therefore assume would be more cost effective but they weren’t able to due to lack of resources. That’s caused a delay in getting my brother and whoever else is going out by a week and therefore possibly a delay in getting people back home by a week or a lack of service there while they wait for staff to arrive. In any case, it’s not very efficient!

rellylivesthere · Today 17:15

quote 'Miliband refused to be moved from Energy in the Autumn reshuffle.'
But Starmer is PM. What does that say about Starmer that he is unable to fire Miliband? PMs have always been able to fire at will. I honestly think his cop out over North Sea oil saying it was up to Miliband not him, is one of the many things which brought about the drubbing in the local elections.
What does Miliband have on Starmer I wonder?