To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

@Incandescentangel But ultimately by not allowing their children to receive a basic education, parents are denying a whole wealth of future opportunities for their children to find work etc; it's restrictive and limiting.

It is when stating I might not have had the choice to send my kids to a school. full of travellers.

It's what others in the future could face though if it is made either more difficult to home educate or even completely banned because it would apply to everyone.

Though I don't see a complete ban happening because it suits LA's when some parents of SEND children home educate.

There's nothing wrong with this being taughtto both sexes in schools either. Some parents don't teach their kids this stuff, so school should fill this gap.

I'm of the opinion that parents shouldn't be allowed to limit what their kids do in this way. We need more education, not less.

It's not anti-Roma to note that Roma people live tens years shorter than their gadgie counterparts. And it's not anti-Roma to remind posters that longevity is correllated with educational attainment. Roma keeping their kids out of school is part of why they are less healthy.

I know you weren't! Sorry if I implied you thought that.

• Thank you : sorry, I didn't think you were but it can be hard to be sure of tone online.

I definitely agree with what you're arguing : we need to find a midpoint. Re the Native comparison, the midpoint there which could have been possible was for education to happen on reservations which a lot of families would have been happy with. I like TempestTost's suggestion re in-community initiatives like travelling schools so it is integrated rather than imposed from outside & disruptive.

Working to address sticking points for those who might attend school if not for various factors could help too. Definitely some people would be unsympathetic or even suggest boarding schools but (I hope!) workable solutions everyone is happy with could be reached if there's effort.

3 further thoughts: 1. As AtchinTan has indicated, travelling during term time means Roma get assigned to the worst schools-and constant moving is surely disruptive. I assume not moving during term time would not be possible, as she says, they move to find work. So maybe travelling schools like TempestTost said are the best option?

Moreover, as AtchinTan says, many Roma DO home educate their children through GCSEs etc. How can we help make this higher?

1. Many Roma are wary of schools & institutions due to history of persecution (the worst being during the Holocaust and enslavement before that in Romania, but of course there were other terrible cases...)

1. AtchinTan also argues that many Roma do go to uni etc but don't say they're Roma so this wouldn't show up in surveys. I wonder if there's any research on what the potential scale of the undercounting could be?

Some of those terrible cases include the Soviets, Balkans, Russia, Ukraine, These aren't far away events for us.

Education here - there have been several different good systems and provisions in the past.

Lots, but not everyone, used them.Your people got jobs and research grants out of them. Many of us, got education and qualifications out of them.

If all that was wanted was for us to get education, academic education, and qualifications including degrees, then they know what works, and we know what works, to achieve that goal.

Children aren't property. Parents have responsibilities, not rights.

I said that because I don't know enough about Roma culture to be able to say "Roma do this or that". But looking from the outside I can imagine the sense of community and family bonds are really strong and that's appealing. The people I know had really close bonds with their parents I was envious of at times. But that might be romanticising on my part. Or a stereotype. Which is why I said probably. You would need to give specific examples of the good things because anything I suggest would likely be patronising. What I meant was similar to what you were saying which is that it's not unreasonable for parents to worry about their children leading different lives and sort of becoming estranged from them. Children can't make an informed choice about educational paths because they don't know what they are choosing until they've actually learnt it and then it's to late to unlearn it. I am not Roma but I did get some flack from my family for going to higher education and then basically leading a very different life to them. And that's really just a class/age divide, it's not as extreme as the difference between a traditional Roma life and modern schooling I would imagine. But I am still glad I went to university so that's my angle/life experience.

It's not just Roma anyway, so it's not just an argument that relates to you specifically. "Trad" lifestyles especially the under schooling of girls/girls not needing uni is being pushed as a good thing quite heavily on social media. I completely get that it's a bit different for Roma because you have a much longer tradition/actual cultural reasons etc. But with how much the "trad life" being pushed by affluent influencers who have had a lot of advantages themselves it's important to discuss the downsides of under educating girls. Roma people aren't by and large the ones doing the right wing influencer thing TBF but it's hard to discuss the downsides of under schooling without discussing the downsides of underschoolong.

I agree we need more education not less. I think the more educated you are the more interesting you are, and the more interesting your life. But the point is, these people don’t agree. They’re happy with the life their culture provides them. If someone tried to force me to do something that was totally against the way I wanted to live, I think I would rebel.

I am not an expert on Roma/ traveller culture but I think there are two points here. The first is that they don’t want their children being exposed to the sexual views of teens who are not of their culture, so they withdraw them at 12. The second is that they don’t want their children to work outside their family business, and they want the girls married young and kept at home. It would not be my way, but it is theirs. Hopefully as more of them settle in houses this will change.

@Incandescentangel I appreciate that it's their culture, but it won't surprise you that as a staunch feminist I don't agree with the oppression of women.
Having said that it goes further than culture in my own personal opinion; I believe all women should not permit nor allow themselves to solely rely on anyone else financially.

@Persephonia1966 Ah - I misread it as being a bit sceptical - sorry! Though tbf, I've been trying to point out all along that there doesn't have to be anything in traveller culture that outsiders find "nice". But reading your posts, I think you probably get that!

I actually totally agree about the "tradwife" homeschooling thing being similar but for some people completely acceptable.

And I think what you said about homeschooling by educated women reducing opportunities for third generations onwards is true. You're also spot on that forcing people into a culture that isn't theirs has had far worse consequences than poverty and limited choices.

I'm trying to navigate the balance between those myself - I went to uni, and have no doubt I benefited hugely from it. But it's definitely come at some cost to my belonging in my community. I don't want my kids to end up with no belonging there at all. But I don't want to deny them the opportunities I had either.

Yeah, I never said it was anti-Roma to say those things. But - come on - surely I don't need to spell this out on a thread about education: correlation isn't causation. Keeping kids out of school isn't why they're less healthy. It is entirely possible to improve the health outcomes of travellers/ Roma without forcing them into the current state education system.

Literacy, I can see, is probably be indirectly causally related to improved health outcomes. But that's a primary school level education. Beyond that, the two things can be separated. I'd argue it's the linking that causes some of the problems - vaccinate your baby, oh wait, why aren't you on this register and that one, your kid needs to attend school - actually you need a social worker...

There are ways to develop an education system that works for travellers. It's just not been done yet.

Same here! I am very much against the oppression of women. But I can’t help thinking that if I were able to force my feminist views on a Roma woman, she might regard that as oppression too!

Yes!! She might even have feminist views of her own, that aren't the same as yours!

@Cheeseandolivesplease what you're calling staunch feminism sounds to me like white feminism. The men of my community are our best allies in the fight against this form of cultural imperialism. I know more than a few women for whom abuse within the community is by a long way the lesser of two evils, compared with the requirement to drop our whole identity and then thank the "staunch feminists" who "rescued" us from it.

@Puffinsandcoffee But by removing girls from education at such a young age, you're not giving them the choice! That's oppression.
Supposing a women is abused by her husband and needs to leave for safely and become independent - this is going to be far more difficult if she hasn't got a basic education.
Unless I've misunderstood when girls are taken out of education, of course?

Oppression comes in many forms. Choice isn't the same as freedom. Education isn't the same as schooling.

I don't think anyone is opposed to education broadly defined, or to improving literacy etc. Though as I've said above, I'm quite highly educated and it didn't protect me from abuse.

Leaving for safety shouldn't mean having to become completely independent - if there's a community around her to support her, I'd argue that's far preferable.

Kids (both boys and girls) stop school at all ages, for various reasons.

@Puffinsandcoffee So it's not the case that girls leave earlier than boys or anything like that?
Of course being educated doesn't guarantee protection from abuse, but it does make it easier to leave it.
I am thrilled healthy relationships are explored as commonplace as part of the curriculum now; had I received such education back in my day (I'm mid 40s) then perhaps I would have spotted the red flags and acted upon them.
I speak absolutely from personal ezperience.

Im sorry you've had that experience. I hope life is good for you now.

I'm not sure if there is a clear boy-girl divide on age for leaving school. I think it varies depending on many factors within the family. I may be wrong tho, maybe there is data on this.

Personally I really don't think curriculum input on healthy relationships would make a big difference (not meaning to dismiss your own view on that, just respectfully saying I don't share it!) I want my girls to stay at school, I think, until 16 and older if they want. But maybe once they start secondary I'll change my mind. Some of the peer influences really do concern me. And like I say, my own education came at the expense of some connection to my community. I'd be devastated if my girls grew away entirely from it because they pursued education and a high flying career instead.

What I truly want for them is self esteem, a strong sense of self and belonging, a loving partner, kids (their choice, if course, but it's such a direct source of joy and meaning), and enough money for comfort and safety. With or without a career, that's less odds to me.

Isn't that more or less the same as every mother?

I don't think most mothers would be devastated if their daughter pursued education and a career, no.

But I didn't say that, did I? I said I'd be devastated if my daughters grew away from their community as a result of pursuing education and a high flying career. Do you see the difference?

And before anyone jumps to retort that "what kind of community would...blah blah blah", I've specifically said grew away from, not be rejected by. It took a long time for me to shake off the secrecy and even shame about who I am, and I subconsciously hid my ethnicity more the better I did at education. I'd be devastated if my girls went through that, especially if they never found their way back.

I had a lot of shame about periods

No periods, no human race. How silly.

Even if the only way she can pursue education and a career is by moving away? And that's what makes her happy?