AIBU to think some people on here are way too obsessed with not being seen as racist?

[BadWordlePlayer]

I’m posting in AIBU because this has been niggling at me for a while with the tone of so many threads lately, but it's really blown up following the bodycam footage of the Henry Nowak case.

There seem to be loads of posts these days where people are basically showing off how not racist they are, or how much they hate racists or the 'far right', or jumping in to call something racist at the slightest thing. It feels performative, like they’re desperate to signal their virtue and make sure everyone knows they’re on the “right” side. I get that racism is bad, obviously, but it sometimes feels like it’s taken over to the point where common sense goes out the window.

Henry Nowak shows how dangerous this mindset is. This poor 18-year-old student was stabbed multiple times by Vickrum Digwa, who then lied to the police claiming Henry had racially abused him. The officers took that accusation at face value, handcuffed Henry while he was lying there bleeding out and saying he couldn’t breathe, and didn’t treat him as the victim urgently enough. He died in police custody essentially. The mindset of those officers sounds exactly like the over-the-top “must not be perceived as racist” attitude you see in some threads here. They sidelined a dying boy because of a racism claim (which turned out to be a complete lie). That’s not just sad — it’s dangerous.

This isn't a left wing / right wing post and I’m not saying racism doesn’t exist or that we shouldn’t call it out when it’s real. I also hate the phrase "virtue signalling", but I can't think of a better one than it. This constant virtue-signalling and knee-jerk reactions make situations like Henry’s more likely, not less. People (including police) become so paralysed by the fear of getting it wrong on race that they get it horrifically wrong on everything else.

Am I being unreasonable? Or has anyone else noticed this shift on MN and in general?

That tone is as ill judged as the counter protest to Henry's vigil.

Yes I know what you are referring to as well.

And it’s certainly not empirical evidence.

It's because lots of people don't seem to understand:
a) The meaning of per capita
b) White male violence is not part of a large institutionalised cover-up operation, with deniers, liars, and those only looking out for themselves.

Sometimes the naked eye is just as useful.

It's because lots of people don't seem to understand:
a) The meaning of per capita
b) White male violence is not part of a large institutionalised cover-up operation, with deniers, liars, and those only looking out for themselves
This becomes utterly irrelevant when someone has been the victim of a senseless crime. If someone's son was attacked viciously by a woman, how would they welcome the 'yes it's sad but as there are more women attacked at the hands of men...'

These threads just descend into boring tail chasing, name calling, frothy, ranty bullshitty shrieking, with everyone just looking for a 'gotcha'.
<off to find a more interesting thread about sandwiches fillings, or something else actually useful>

I’ve noticed this. I grew up in an extremely diverse area. I have an immigrant background.

I knew a minority were very racist but I have seen a hell of a lot less racism over the years.

The ones who are racist now are quietly racist but probably looking for excuses to be open about it.

But who are you to say what is and is not racism? I would argue there has never been a time in human history when there was a human consensus on what is and is not racism. Even the examples you give plenty would argue it’s not racist by their definition.

You’re are very dismissive of things such as microagressions but there have always been levels of racism. It’s not just lynchings, the holocaust and racialised slavery.

Also “anti-colonialism” is definitely not new….

As for arrests - it hasn’t actually adjusted how officers behave in the main as stop and search and strip search figures show.

Sure.

But as long as we’re agreed it’s not empirical data.

What has surprised me is discussing racism with people from minority backgrounds. Just like real life is very different to social media, my experience is that people from minority backgrounds don't feel half as offended about things relating to their race as a certain group of people who believe to be the highest defenders of other imply.

Most, thankfully, can also make fun of themselves without descending into humiliation. I say that as a white person of a different nationality that is often made fun of in a not complimentary way at all. I can laugh about it and realise that it's nothing to do with racism.

I'll only ever think about my behaviour or choice of word if someone tells I have offended THEM with what I did or say. Then I will take it very seriously and look into making changes.

White middle class women telling me what I should do or say to a black person? Nah!

Yes, it is irrelevant when someone is the victim of a senseless crime, which of course happens a lot.

However, in the case of Henry Nowak, the entire Digwa family should go down. Vickrum stabbed, the mother hid the knife, the brother called the police and shouted racism (not mentioning that he had been stabbed, had an ambulance been called then Henry may have survived). I don't know if the father knew if he'd been stabbed or not so I can't comment on that, you can just hear him at the beginning of the video saying that Henry had a mouthful of blood. This is just another case of an institutionalised cover-up operation that I mentioned before. Have a listen to the Rape Gang Inquiry testimonies if you want to learn more.

Good idea. Let's all do the same.

That sounds like a backwards way of thinking. If they are aware of something you are not why would you dismiss them due to their skin colour?

That’s like a PP here on a different thread who had an elder family member who insisted on referring to black people (not to their face) as “darkies” and refused to be educated by her presumably white family members as to why that was offensive. I presume you agree that until a black person corrects her she should continue as she is?

Having a role that means I watch a reasonable amount of body cam footage, in almost every scenario acting like the police did with Nowak would be the right scenario. The jackanories people tell to slow down police process, to try to get away etc etc, I can entirely see how you get to a place where you treat a stab victim by saying “I don’t think you have been stabbed”, as it’s not impossible that it’s the fifth time the police person has been told that this week and this is the first time it’s true. And the last time they believed it, they got nutted in the face when they checked the welfare of the person they were trying to detain.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s absolutely no excuse, but it’s not even necessarily racially driven. I’ve seen police make the right call in dealing with a scenario with people like that of all creeds. I don’t condone the way the situation played out, but I understand it. They did briefly check and there was no visible evidence he had been stabbed, which again must be unusual in fatal stabbing which are often quite bloody.

It must be difficult to treat everyone with due care and empathy when 75% of the people you deal with are actively contemptuous, duplicitous, entitled and violent towards you.

Anti-colonialism as a mainstream concept in public institutions is certainly pretty new.

Of course low-level racism has existed for as long as humans have mixed with people who are different to them, but it's only recently that addressing it has been turned into an industry. It never used to be considered possible or desirable to try to control people's thoughts and everyday social interactions.

My partner is mixed race. We have had bananas thrown at us , his work van egged and “he’s only with me for a visa” incidents. Don’t you worry, old style racism is still very much about.

Goodness, so much to unpick in that first paragraph alone. Firstly, we don't have "untrammelled immigration". The list of countries whose citizens require a visa to enter the UK is so massive that it would fill a whole page, so I'll post a link rather than copy and paste it. Here you go:

Coutries that require visas for UK

Do you really feel that DEI is wholly poisonous, given that it benefits many diverse groups including women, people with disabilities, gay people? Or is it just Muslims that you feel should not be included? All of those groups have been disadvantaged in employment, housing etc in the past.

And there is diversity within Islam itself. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists, I'd hazard a guess that only a small minority are. A Muslim former colleague of mine only covers her hair when she goes to mosque, a Muslim friend doesn't seem to give a shit about the dietary rules and drinks alcohol occasionally. And I suspect that most religions have their fundamentalist groups, Christianity certainly does, and some of those are very repressive when it comes to women's rights.

It's absurd to dismiss Islamic culture. We'd still be using Roman numerals if we did that; we wouldn't have algebra, astronomy or surgery and probably tons of other things. It's given so much to the world.

And everyone in Britain should follow British law. I've not seen any data that says that Muslims are significantly disproportionately represented in crime stats overall. If you are aware of any studies that have found this to be the case, I'd appreciate a link.

@trueredstart, I agree with you. It's institutionalised because that's what has been shoved down our throats for so long now.

That sounds like a backwards way of thinking. If they are aware of something you are not why would you dismiss them due to their skin colour?
Call it backwards, I call it sensible. What gives any not affected group the right to believe they are more aware than any other non affected group of what is right by affected groups? It's that sense of entitlement of the truth that makes me take what you call a 'backward' approach.

This exactly.

The idea that people go out of their way not to be racist is ridiculous.

People revel in it at the moment!

Anti-colonialism thought has been a continued movement from the days of empire, moving between the political, to the legal, to the cultural,
to the societal. It’s certainly not a new thing.

I don’t think anybody even now is making an industry of policing what is in people’s heads. Well some people do but there are all kinds of people that think all kinds of things. Most people who make an “industry” of it are trying to combat the impact of said “thoughts” (and for the most part they’re ignored.)

@BusyExpertdo you push for greater cultural integration by all of those Brits in the Middle East and Spain too??

Please explain why this only works one way. In France there is war between rival ethnicities in the suburbs because of racism . All the different races detest each other. As numbers have grown, instead of being a homogenous group of “immigrants” they have banded into their own groups.

Do you think that fundamental Muslims here do not judge white people?

If you think people are being performative to appear non racist, that says more about you. Whats wrong with people wanting to be nice to others'? Such a strange thing to complain about.

As a brown person, I am happy for race to be discussed in policing. Something has gone very wrong in the Nowak case. I changed my mind after watching the video.