To observe that we don't have free will.

[MesonBoson]

Most of us feel that we have free will.

But when we are faced with making any choice, we are using pre-existing decision-making equipment on pre-existing circumstances.

And so the decision that we make is the only one that our particular mind would make, in that particular situation.

We have to live our lives as though we have free will.

But once you see that life is like the groove in a record, merit and blame become equal imposters.

That's true in that part of the discussion.

Overall, I believe that:

1 - free will is an illusion; and,

2 - that's a really fortunate thing for me to believe that, because it's a great place to see the world from.

I can see that it could be a fortunate and useful thing to believe in lots of situations. Do you think people believing this would be likely to use it to override conscience pangs in a way that might well be damaging?

There is the philosophical argument against free will, that because everything they happens is as a result of what's already happened - cause and effect - there is no choice in anything we do, it's all been predetermined since the start of the universe (and presumably before that even.)

So, no, not everyone would end up in prison because not everybody is on that pre-determined path.

We can't really know if this is true or not, for obvious reasons, and for practical reasons around responsibility etc., it's better to assume we have free will.

I think that for most of us, the algorithm that runs within us is caring and community minded.

And the one who it's not. Pity them.

Yes indeed!

To some extent, I agree with you, but I hold (well, I try to, it's a slippery concept!) an eternalist view of existence, rather than a deterministic one.

If I saw the world that way then I would feel very sorry for rapists and murderers for having to follow that path through no fault of their own.

I would also be completely dismissive of people who are kind or have developed great resilience because I would just think 'Oh well they would be like that wouldn't they?'
They were just destined to be kind, just like they were destined to have blue eyes or something.

Therefore I would feel the same about everyone, very flat, and quite depressing I think.

If it's impossible to disprove, maybe that's because it's true.

Clever use of the word maybe there OP.

If that makes you happy and helps you engage with the world in a meaningful way then I don't see an issue with it.

I personally like the idea that "free will" may or may not exist as it makes my life and view of the world more interesting.

"Therefore I would feel the same about everyone, very flat, and quite depressing I think."

This doesn't follow from what I am suggesting.

Even though our paths are inevitable, you can still take huge pleasure in your life and the world around you.

So do you feel the same about both rapists and kind people then, because neither can help who they are? ( If I understand you correctly.)

To me that's not pleasurable, but it stands to reason I suppose that, thinking as you do, you would think it's fine.

If you truly feel no responsibility for anything, and that no one else has any responsibilities either, then I suppose nothing would ever worry or surprise you.

I agree with you initial analysis (haven't read the whole thread).

OP have you got any strategies or book recommendations to work on getting free will?

I recently read this book which touches on similar topics: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Status-Game-Will-Storr/dp/0008354634

The conclusion of the book is instead of seeking status from owning things, or being part of a group you should get status by being good at things that help society or that you are actually interested in (as opposed to som things you pretend you interested in to be part of the group)

My friend Susan is a delight to be with.

That's where her path has lead her, and I take delight from being with her.

My brother-in-law John is an utter cunt.

That's where his path has lead him, and I avoid him always.

Of course things worry and surprise me. I am human. That's how we are.

I first thought about this as I listened to Radio 4's In Our Time on the topic.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00z5y9z

"we are using pre-existing decision-making equipment on pre-existing circumstances."
Definite no to this one!
Every moment is a new moment. Something has changed, even if only minutely.

The decision making equioment changes over time. So do the circumstances.

Every situation resembles a previous one but is different, perhaps subtly.

Of course we can make a new and different decision each time.

You have free will not to follow your instinctive response to situations, that's how humanity has progressed. Yes it's easier to do what's expected or what your parents would do but it's not compulsory.