To observe that we don't have free will.

[MesonBoson]

Most of us feel that we have free will.

But when we are faced with making any choice, we are using pre-existing decision-making equipment on pre-existing circumstances.

And so the decision that we make is the only one that our particular mind would make, in that particular situation.

We have to live our lives as though we have free will.

But once you see that life is like the groove in a record, merit and blame become equal imposters.

Ordinary but individual.

But actually, you're not ordinary, and we know that because you didn't follow the ordinary path.

I can see why you say that, but I'm not.

To me fate implies an outside force.

Whereas I just think that one thing follows another, and there is only one path.

It’s a rather pointless and circular theory though. It’s impossible to argue against it as you’d just say ‘but that was the next step you were always going to take.’

This is one of those theories that seems impossible to disprove because it has a circular internal logic. “You did that because you were always going to do that given your life circumstances, nature and nurture.”

But there’s no way to know in advance what the thing that you’re going to do it. It can only be applied retrospectively.

OP you seem to like this because it eliminates praise or blame (though not applied consequences, which doesn’t entirely follow?). Why does that concept appeal to you?

I can see that my position is frustrating, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Maybe it's impossible to argue against, because it's correct.

If it's impossible to disprove, maybe that's because it's true.

Of course for all of us there are ongoing chains of decisions, actions, consequences, decisions...

But within that we're not bringing any magical freedom.

It's not that this realisation appeals to me; rather, to me, it's simply true.

I do believe our DNA and upbringing have a bearing on who we are, but I also believe in free will. And yes, merit and blame are both still earned and deserved, like it or not.

No praise, no punishment due to anyone then, since none of us could behave in any way other than how we do.

I think there's something very dystopian about this theory, and bad for mental health, if you consider the implications any more than superficially.

Your premise has made me unreasonably angry. I think it's because I, like millions of others, have done loads of therapy - the purpose of which is to identify our 'algorithms', which therapy calls schemas, and undertake to change the patterns and assumptions underlying our decisions.

I actually believe everyone should do it. Discussions like this strengthen that opinion.

@Raciney · Today @ 18:12. This was a beautiful reply.

Strangely, I'm not offering a moral perspective.

I'm saying that morality is invalid.

Although it will always be a huge part of how humans interact.

I live my life as though I have free will, bit knowing that I do not gives me a huge liberation.

Me too, but I fear my operator might drop me in a swimming pool with no stairs instead.

No, it’s because circular logic is a thought-terminating cliche. There’s no way to disprove it OR prove it because it’s entirely circular. You can believe it if you like, but that doesn’t make it true.

What is the liberation that your belief brings? You still seem to believe in, for example, punishment for crimes, even if you believe those being punished were unable to choose their actions differently. So how does your belief make any difference?

Now you're being grumpy!

Liberation from what? Liberation to do what? How is it any different to just behaving without your belief system?

Why would you want to live your life as if you have free will, if it's something you don't believe in?
Surely most people try to live according to what they do believe, not what they don't?

Now you’re resorting to ad hominem :-)

It means that I don't have to hate people.

No matter how terrible they are I know that their path was fixed long, long, ago.

And so I can hate people's actions and views without hating the person.

I can look at the worst and think: How lucky I am, that that was not me.

I won't say that I believe in punishment, btw, but I'm glad it happens (and sometimes wish it happened more severely.

You’re not required to hate people who make bad choices, and you can be grateful for what you have without your belief system.

As well as not having to hate, the flipside of my liberation is that I can look at very fortunate people and not feel much jealousy.

They don't deserve their wealth and power, it's just a thing that happening to them.

This also applies to me.

I live a very sweet life.
It would be easy to think that I deserve it, but I don't.

I'm just lucky that this where my path lies.

Maybe so, about gratitude, but I think that there is a strong impetus to hate people in the way humans interact.

Any mumsnetter knows that!

What makes you think most people are automatically hating the person and not the behaviour (which you yourself deem acceptable)?

It's true that what I am arguing is circular and unproveable, but so would be the opposite position.

But I think the opposite position puts the cart before the horse.

Where does this magical 'freedom' quality reside?

Why use the word “magical”?