To observe that we don't have free will.

[MesonBoson]

Most of us feel that we have free will.

But when we are faced with making any choice, we are using pre-existing decision-making equipment on pre-existing circumstances.

And so the decision that we make is the only one that our particular mind would make, in that particular situation.

We have to live our lives as though we have free will.

But once you see that life is like the groove in a record, merit and blame become equal imposters.

It's tied to free will as your sense of self or consciousness allows you to even understand what the concept of "free will" is.

That said your memories and my own are half made up and our brain fires electrical signals and responds before we even "think" so it's a very messy subject.

Please don't think I'm arguing with you as I fully believe you're entitled to see things however you want but it is a fact that science can't explain what makes us "consciousness" and have a "self".

From a hard deterministic position they would all be predictable, but we obviously (presently and probably always) lack capacity to do this.

What about people who lack capacity? Due to intoxication (alcohol, drugs etc), mental health illness (schizophrenia, psychosis etc.) or mental/cognitive impairment?

I'm not sure what you mean?

That's what makes Dementia terrifying

Edit.. is it a loss of self and free will or a stark reminder that we have neither?

I agree with you.Special relativity alone makes it impossible, in that all events in space time are equal, so there is no such time as past or future: in a sense, the entire history of the universe already exists and always has.

Sabine Hossenfelder has done a few videos about it:

Possibly true - but if something's so complex that it can't be distinguished from free will (now or ever), is there a difference and does it matter?

I think I got to this thread too late and posted my reply after only reading a few of your posts so it’s a daft question . 🙈

I was asking if you think they have free will, as their thought process is unpredictable, unconcerned and unencumbered by societal rules, previous experiences etc. .

So as a unified organism you hedge your bets really.

That's a cynical way of looking at things, but it might be true :-)

People have will, but the term "free" tacked on the front can be rather misleading. Unless they're randomly throwing dice, people will make decisions for specific reasons, in line with various specific criteria.

So yes, if the choices people make are meaningful, then they are deterministic, constrained by all the factors people bring into consideration, including what suits their personal nature.

But nonetheless we do need to make many such choices, and the human brain is well suited to making complex decisions that are quite unlike any other determining factors at work in nature, which is how we've managed to completely change our world to suit ourselves. Human will is itself powerfully deterministic.

The term "free will" is best used to describe choices people make without being forced or overly pressured by other people, or circumstances entirely beyond their control.

I think, if you believe in a hard deterministic position (where events are essentially unfolding as they always would, like a video tape running), then the very question 'does it matter?' is kind of out of sync/ a category error...hard determinism would say that the chain of events unfolding would have always lead to you asking that question, and that experience might have some casual impact on subsequent experiences for you (and for me, and anyone reading) but that is irrespective of the idea of free will, which it asserts does not exist. So, no, 'it does not matter' in the sense that it is just another one of gazillion experiences you were always going to have and was a predetermined experience for you, with a predetermined impact (or lack of it) on whatever comes next.

Obviously only if you believe in hard determinism. But if you believe in free will but believe some things are so complex that free will looks indistinguishable from determinism then you have answered your own question in the same way, I guess, so no it doesn't matter to you. But for some who believe free will is still influential even when it is indistinguishable from determinism then it possibly still matters to them - that is the experience they have. But then of course they were always going to feel that way 🤪

Causal impact not casual 😆

I completely agree with you OP. HNRTT but I’ve been entirely convinced by Robert Sapolsky.

Even if you don't have free will does it matter?

Surely free will is the very concept that it does matter?

If you believe in free will then you believe you have control over your decisions and actions, and that they do matter?

What if science proved tomorrow that none of us have free will though? Would that really change much for the most of us? It wouldn't make me completely disregard my life up until this point so I'm not sure how important free will actually is in that hypothetical scenario.

If your beliefs are simply the inevitable output of your programming, on what basis have you concluded they're true rather than merely inevitable?

That's maybe true for you but I think it could change a lot for a lot of people, I think "it would matter" to them in terms of how they evaluated their past and future lives, major issues of religion, concept of punishing criminals, etc etc.

That knowledge, if it were proven to be true, (and if it were truly believed and taken to heart - another question altogether) would be impactful.

Oh certainly I have to concede that it would be impactful but I suppose I'm asking if it should? Would the proof free will didn't exist excuse crime or make you not love your children etc. for me it wouldn't but.. wait is that my own decision or not..

For hard determinism the inevitability is the central aspect. I don't think there is any possibility of proving it / ascertaining truth to it without getting bogged down in circular reasoning.

But of course, that something can not be proven to be true, does not mean that it is not true.

For myself I look at hard determinism as the most parsimonious explanation for experience, and science should generally try to look for explanations that are the most parsimonious.

I also think the neuroscience in this area is very interesting and there are several studies now that show that appear to show that the experience of decision making / volition actually occurs after the action has already occured / the decision has already been made.

https://www.science.org/content/article/case-closed-free-will

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627310010822

I'm not sure what is meant by 'free will'. There's a sort of arrogant Victorian idea of no boundaries to what a chap may do or think and there's a more constrained, realist idea of humans having choices.

We're constrained by our biology, which includes our cognition, by time and circumstance and society, our choices are limited in that sense. But far from being wholly determined, they are in the moment, may be impulsive, each choice bounces off another choice made elsewhere in constant unpredictable motion.

So neither determined nor controllable.

Depressive thinking tends to be characterised by a sense of determinism, see Detective 'Rust' Cohle's 'Time is a flat circle' shizzle.

It’s mostly a religious concept , or at least it started that way. Rather than being predestined to sin, we have a choice.

But you’re not answering the question ‘is there free will?’ You’re answering my question ‘is it better to believe there is free will?’ and I think doing this with a very valid answer.

the experience of decision making / volition actually occurs after the action has already occurred / the decision has already been made.

That's about the lag between conscious & unconscious thought. My 'experience' of deciding I'd better make some dinner instead of eating biscuits all evening follows an unconscious prompt that I'm hungry, then a little back-and-forth between my conscious and unconscious regarding whether biscuits will provide the needed nutrition and would be as satisfying as the chicken liver with sautéed veg I have waiting to be cooked.

Since we're now all interested in my dinner (!), I am consciously thinking "I know it'll only take 15 minutes but I don't want to stand in the kitchen for that long, I hurt." But the previous negotiation has convinced me dinner will make me feel nourished, while the rest of the biscuit pack will make me feel sick.

We are constantly educating our subconscious minds. They don't come fully stacked from birth. If they couldn't be educated, therapy wouldn't work and training to the point of 'flow' wouldn't be possible.