To think that not always, but quite often, it is the parents...

[ImImmortalNowBabyDoll]

I was a teacher for a few years and in the years I taught I saw behaviour getting MUCH worse and parents getting less and less inclined to support teachers.

I saw a facebook post today saying that it's unreasonable to blame parents for children's behaviour in school and it then went on to talk about how hard it is for ND kids to stay regulated at school and it's the fault of "the system" that they can't cope.

There's a family I know with 2 boys who are both constantly in trouble in school. The classroom frequently has to be evacuated because of the younger one's violent outbursts. He's about 8.

I saw him today in the library, running around, ignoring the librarian, and swearing profusely the whole time. They're both always out unsupervised, roaming the streets, and when I see him with his Mum, she speaks to him with the same language he uses for everyone else. Social services had to get involved because she kept smacking them, so now she swears and shouts at them and they hit her, and she asks what she's supposed to do now she's not allowed to hit them back.

I don't know if they are ND, but the problem is that they're barely being parented and when they are, they example being set is dreadful.

I agree! Not always but there's a portion of it the parents.
Last weekend I was on the bus and a group of kids come on with a couple, there was a toddler who they took out of the pram who then decided he was going to run up and down the bus . The parents was like Johnny come here, johnny stop doing that, then the other kids decided oh little Johnny is allowed to do this let's have a go. So the bus then has numerous kids including the toddler walking up and down the aisle and the parents are just half soaked and not even acknowledging the danger of it. An old woman caught the youngster a couple of times and even then the parents still didn't acknowledge it. Mums moan to go in the pram fell on deaf ears.
The kids weren't being "naughty" They just needed that bit of guidance for them to understand the consequences and of course if the driver had to break sharply and the toddler hurt himself it would've been the driver at fault according to these type of parents.
Kids aren't being parented anymore, they are not being told right from wrong and as for respect that's gone right out of the window!
Yet it's always someone else's fault....

To be fair to her what is she supposed to do she's probably scared of them and they sound completely out of control. I do absolutely think its parenting to an extent but I also think genetics and personality type have a huge part to play my 2 eldest completely different personality types. One is really laid back, well behaved, calm and just has a gentle nature. The eldest was and still is an absolute nightmare she just can't control her temper, she has outbursts over any minor inconvenience, will smash things up, will shout and swear and can just be generally unpleasant

What surprises me on MN is the number of posts from mothers who genuinely seem completely helpless in managing their children who exhibit totally normal unpleasant behaviours for their age.

It's as if they gave birth thinking that their kids would naturally grow up without displaying any challenging behaviours so when they do, they have no idea how to discipline. They don't and when things get worse, they blame it on others or conditions, so that they don't have to take any responsibility for it.

That and being scared to discipline because they think they will be judged and shown up for being horrible people.

He is 8! Why is he being allowed to go out roaming the streets? My husband (also a former teacher) has spent a bit of 1-2-1 time with them (in the same room as the parents, they're neighbours) doing things like playing board games or even just chatting with them and they respond well. But the Mum's version of parenting is to sit on her phone and every now and then when they get rowdy say things like, "You're doing my fing head in, no wonder your Dad fed off, I wish I could, I'm fed up of the both of you."

Having worked in a school, I once worked out the proportion of time a child spends at school during a year, compared to home, as some parents think that teachers should be responsible for so much of their child’s behaviour/upbringing.
15%. That’s how much. 85% of the time they are at home. Even though some of it is night-time, it still counts as time under the influence of parents (rather than teachers) as some children are up late at night watching tv/playing on games consoles in their rooms, way past when they should be off screens and asleep in bed.
Now tell me that parents aren’t the main influencers on their children’s behaviour, and that others are to blame…

Oh I thought you where talking about 6ft teenage boys

The older one must be 14/15 now, I see him out with a group of lads, often vaping or drinking and being unruly. But you know, every time he sees us he will always cross the road, even in front of all his lad mates, to politely say hello to our little girl and give her a high five. My heart breaks for both of them to be honest, I think they have the potential to be such nice boys. They are bright and have good hearts but starved of attention, love and boundaries.

Children’s behaviour has changed for the worse since I was in school. There was a few naughty or cheeky kids but nothing like the behavioural issues we see today. So something has happened in society and with parenting. There is a lack of accountability with parents, everything is someone else’s fault or blaming possible ND issues. There is no respect for teachers or other people who are disrupted by their behaviour. Lazy parents make poor role models, what hope do some of these kids have.

Thats sweet I think most people have a kind polite side but will depend on the people they surrounded themselves with. Hopefully he will meet a nice partner or go to college and make some nice friends and it will be the making off him

Yes, I do believe most of the time it is down to copied parenting. Some really are just plain hopeless 😔/ lacking in self control/parenting how they were brought up etc. If kids are left to run feral in the neighbourhood, have no structure, boundaries, of course they're not going to be able to adapt to a school regime.

There are also some who have good role models as parents but do have individual issues.

The school system as it is serves no justice to all of these kids. Huge academies, big classes, frazzled teachers, demanding or/and blame shifting parents.

I went through school with undiagnosed AuDHD and I got told off a lot for being off task, not following instructions, not having the right equipment and sometimes speaking out of turn- but I didn't just stop trying and I wouldn't have dreamed of attacking a child or adult to get my own way. Even with poor impulse control I could understand that there was a line that could not be crossed!

I have a family member whose child is diagnosed autistic and it was her excuse for everything. You couldn't tell her that the massively unstable home life and permissive parenting style was causing the issue, she'd just say that you had no idea what it was like to be an "Autism Mummy Warrior" and she would continue to fight for her son against our ignorance. He was completely out of control, suspended from school every week, extreme violence. Then, due to various incidents (drug related mostly) he went to his Dad full time and he's a totally different child.

Yes, this type of not taking control of your own DC can be sadly seen a lot 😕 and when something happens it's someone else's fault.

Parents make children.

Exactly...or a parent lets their child run wild then gets upset when another adult shouts at them because they don't approve of shouting at kids, which is a fair standpoint to have, but if they'd used their supposedly better disciplinary tactics before then it would never have happened!

the school need more support in cases like this,
it is down to finance

I was musing on this (again!) last night, I was driving back through our local town at about 11pm and there were a whole gaggle of children (primary age) scooting up and down the pavement whilst parents sat in deck chairs in the garden having a drink, I see that frequently when I drive past the same row. So next day in school knackered kids, behaviour and concentration likely crap. Poor parenting.

To play devils advocate, my daughter started half term today, so they might not have been in school.

Yes and I would agree with that but everytime I drive past it’s the same gardens and same kids, always far too late so not half term related.

Back in the early 80’s my DM attended parents evening and as she was the last parent to be seen, my teacher and DM got onto general conversation about children’s poor behaviour in school.

DM always remembered her words: “We get what you send us.”

It’s not new that children who are dragged up will likely behave like it, have poor achievement and general life outcomes. It’s a travesty but sadly it’s nothing new.

But this family that you know is just one example, where there's bad parenting.

We don't smack our children, we don't swear and shout, we set boundaries, and yet our AuDHD son, who's 5, had a horrible time in mainstream. He will attend specialist school from September and has an EHCP.

We also have a daughter, who is 4 1/2 years old, who doesn't have the same struggles as her brother. She will do extremely well when she attends mainstream from September.

I did say, not always. This family is one example and it's not something that's easy to collect reliable data on, but I do know several other families running the gamut from the screaming and smacking ones to the "Oh Cinnabon-Sundae, let's have a talk about what you were feeling when you punched your teacher in the face and set fire to the nurture room. Were you very anxious and overwhelmed? Was Mrs Jones not supporting your needs?" Both create tiny tyrants.

@florence1234567
I'm not commenting on your situation as I don't know you, but I will say, I have a friend who would say the same as you, she has a son with autism and ADHD and two others who are NT and very different to him. However, I would say there's a lot of her parenting I don't agree with- way too much screen time, no consequences and other things. I think the difference is the NT children are able to cope in spite of this, but her ND son needs more focus.

I've thought for a while that the rapid rise in children with ADHD is not because they weren't always there, but because years ago they were better managed. I know too many parents now who just use the diagnosis as an excuse.

My attitude to my kids (one NT, two ND) is that the ADHD means you approach things differently but you've still got to do them!

Have any studies been done where child Thren have the same expectations in school as they did in , say, the 1960s: and the same response to bad behaviour.

Maybe my memory faulty but I don't remember any children behaving "badly", however i still have a really sad memory, I was five and I knew my reading. When I got to the teacher my brain/mouth stopped working and I couldn't get the first word out. No help, no prompting, I got the strap.

I think this post took a swerve, but we knew that there would be terrible consequences if we misbehaved or didn't do our work. We never found out for sure what they would be.

And, this was in Scotland. When I was eight we moved down to England and i was way ahead of my classmates, which didn't make for an easy life. Also ... racism, try being scottish in an english class!

I think modern life and modern parenting methods are creating lots of children who exhibit traits similar to those of ND children and that's where the confusion and rise in numbers is coming from.

I have mixed feeling about this take.

I was undiagnosed in childhood. I was "managed"- not overly naughty or disruptive, academically very successful. But I was thoroughly miserable and felt like a failure all the time. I was 14 when I first felt suicidal. When I got my ADHD diagnosis, it was like a huge weight lifted off me and I felt like finally I had validation that I was trying my best and not just lazy or some sort of horrible person.

I think that children with ND need to be recognised and supported, but you are right that some parents get the diagnosis and treat it as a "get out of jail free" card. Why is your son battering my daughter with a tree branch? He can't help it, he's autistic. Why did your child throw a chair into the Interactive Whiteboard? You didn't make the necessary accommodations for his ADHD.