To think telling a child to "cover up" because of male teachers is ewwww?

[FreeeeeeeeFreeFalling]

DD and her mates were wearing fairly standard vest tops at school for an own clothes day. All dressed exactly the same. DD singled out and told to cover up (I suspect because she is slightly larger chested than the others), which she found humiliating. She was told "there are male teachers around" as the reason!
They are 16.
I kind of think if male teachers can't keep their eyes to themselves, they shouldn't be teachers, right?!

AIBU to think this is a bit off?

I didn't edit it. The post you responded to was talking about teenage girls being sexualised and sexualising themselves. HTH.

I made an earlier comment mentioning women denying their socialisation, but that wasn't the one you quoted. Perhaps that's where the confusion arose.

I agree with you, I think school uniform should be trousers for both sexes. Would solve a lot of problems.

I know some pps have the attitude that men are out-of-control lustful beasts and that any suggestion that women should modify their clothing choices for any reason at all is out of the question.

That's not how I see it. To me, it's not a case of 'please consider male teachers who might be aroused/embarrassed/not know where to look'. To me, it's about aesthetics and what's appropriate. I don't like seeing erogenous zones of either sex on public display - call me old-fashioned, I really don't care! And oddly enough, it's not because I become helpless with lust on seeing a young man's ripped chest or a boy's butt crack above his trackies - I just find it off-putting and inappropriate.

I sing in a choir and our uniform is all black. The rule is: arms covered. Is that because we're scared the audience males might be driven to uncontrolled lust while listening to us sing? Er...no. It's because pretty much everyone in the choir agrees that large expanses of (especially white, which stands out)bare flesh is unappealing. There have been the occasional women who've worn very, very low-cut dresses, and it's not a good look in this context - for a start, it's attention-seeking. It's a context where the focus should be on the music and the performance, not your bulging buzzies. And - the point of a choir is to blend voices and also blend into a homogenous mass in appearance, not to stand out in a 'Look at me!' way.

It's not always about sexuality. It's about consideration for other people who might just now want to see you butt cheeks or breasts bursting out of clothing. I don't know why this is so hard to understand for some people. It's as if they think everyone goes around in a sexual frenzy. They really don't. It's aesthetics, aesthetics, aesthetics.

One eg. I've been in situations (when I was younger and prettier) where men have 'paraded' themselves in a state of what they obviously thought was irresistibly sexy (budgie smugglers, thongs etc). I was just embarrassed myself, and for them, and ran away pdq.

Just a different perspective.

And not being able to see arse cheek or the beginnings of sanitary pads?

Hard agree. I think some schools have brought in a trousers only rule for girls.

It makes total sense. There's only so much you can do with trousers to be subversive - skirts are much more of an issue.

I feel for your daughter because it is much harder to dress in a way that doesn’t show cleavage when you have cleavage ! 2 women can wear the same outfit and one will look so much more ‘sexual’ than another just because of their body shape. I think, as women, it’s so wrong to make other women feel they should hide their body just because it’s curvier . We shouldn’t have to spend our time worrying whether our breasts are going to make someone else uncomfortable with their own feelings. That’s for them to deal with .

For goodness sake they are still attending school, below age limit to have sex, and not having the mental tools to deal with it, they don't realise they look like cheap tarts, and some men of all ages are going to conduct immoral thoughts whether you like it or not, it cheapens and demeans who they are.

It also makes me uncomfortable, not because of the body parts, but (I’m a woman but I imagine this is especially the case for male teachers) in case you get accused of copping an eyeful, an accusation which would be taken seriously and investigated.

How on earth is this misogyny?

Surely we should be teaching our youngsters to respect their own bodies? What's misogynistic about allowing or encouraging them to just dress however they like, regardless of whether they look like they're about to walk onto the set of a porn shooting?

And yes, men shouldn't rape, but they do, men shouldn't have perverted thoughts. or violent thoughts, but they do. Women do too. Yes, men will rape no matter what a woman is wearing, we all know that.

But we encourage young women to educate themselves, make wise choices, not to cheapen themselves by sleeping around when they're young, to do their best in life. How is flashing their breasts and bottom cheeks part of this positive encouragement? It's giving exactly the opposite message and reminds me more of bygone times and Carry On film attitudes where a woman's body was objectified for cheap laughs.

Schoolchildren may be growing up but they are still children. And need guidance in life. How to dress is part of that. Once they get older they can make their own choices without the input of other people. And if walking around with erogenous zones on show is their choice, then so be it. But not at school.

But then some wear them so tight you can see the outline of everything anyway. they might as well be just wearing tights. At least the girls who walk past my house to the school bus every day do. I overheard a young lad say that he likes the girls who wear tight trousers because you can see what sort of knickers they are wearing! Yes, I know if shouldn't happen.

Agree

In that case I’d blame the parents for buying the trousers so tight. You can’t stop girls rolling up their skirts after they’ve left the house, taking in your trousers on the way to school is a rather different matter!

But Dora, some of the 'skirts' I've seen on school girls show you exactly what kind of knickers they are wearing with very little need to use your imagination.

I think it's in the nature of teenagers at school to want to push boundaries with their uniform (in my day it was just fiddling with your tie) so there'll never be a perfect solution, but I think there is far less scope for messing about with a pair of trousers.

I agree totally with your last sentence but unfortunately real life is what it is. As someone with a 'larger chest', shall we say, I've always had to cope with both women and men noticing it and sometimes remarking on it (actually, that was the women, oddly enough) and yes, I did always feel uncomfortable.

I don't (and hardly ever have) worn revealing clothing because I find people scrutinising my body very uncomfortable. And (as I said upthread) it doesn't have to be sexual. Women friends telling me I look curvaceous, or that I'm 'well-endowed' is really excruciating and I wish they'd just shut up! They didn't mean any harm, but I just cringed and vowed to find a baggier top next time.

Yes, totally agree that you shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable but it happens in the real world. (I know I'm a bit weird and many people would love to have these remarks made about them...but not everyone does.)

The hyper sexualisation really dismays me as a teacher. In our current year 10 the new fad is for girls to create “love bites” out of make up on their necks. On one hand I’m glad they’re not real but on the other, why is this a mark of respect?

I said it upthread but unless you work in a school, you don’t realise how short or low the skirts or tops are. I have taught for 26 years and it’s only been lately that the bum skimming has become popular. We also have teens who buy those nipple enhancers so they stick out their shirts. To posters thinking short skirts are thigh high, you’re wrong. They’re like those k-pop across the bum cheek height.

Anyway, if parents think it’s empowering then we can’t challenge. I’m just glad my 15 year old DD is into combats and band shirts!

Seconded.

Yes, I had not seen the really short skirts when I read the first sort of thread like this and thought posters were being a bit easily shocked.

Then when I did see one, I knew immediately what they had been talking about. It has totally blurred the line between being clothed and being in underwear.

I live in a seaside town and in the summer seeing too much flesh is inevitable but it did surprise me when I started seeing girls with skirts shorter than their blazers with bum cheeks on show.

I understand as a Teacher you will have views as to what & what isn't appropriate school attire. What I can't understand is why schools don't impose rules as to what is deemed as inappropriate such as skirts above mid thigh & in non uniform days not exposing breasts. It is up to Head Teachers to make sure school attire rules are adhered to & to impose consequences if the rules are broken.

Well, I wasn't expecting this to get nearly so much traffic.

I actually agree wholeheartedly that the tastes of teenage girls are horribly shaped by hideously misogynistic porn culture (in the way ALL out tastes are shaped by our context). I wish this were different, and I would choose different clothes for my daughter, if I was in charge. But at 16, I choose to discuss and debate this stuff with her rather than to attempt to control it. She gets that choice, because it is her body, and she is a highly intelligent, head-strong, thoughtful human being I respect enormously. There plenty of areas in which I step in, but this is not one of them.

And it's also complicated. Involved in this situation is the body shaming of the well-endowed, the implication that women's clothes should be chosen with men's eyes in mind (in either "direction"), and the all ways the teacher's tastes and approaches have also been shaped by our misogynistic culture. I have no intention of complaining, btw, because she will have meant well on some level, and because DD wouldn't want me to, but thank you very much to those who've understood why the comment was problematic.

I don't think the lines between "sexual body part" and "non-sexual body part" (smiling is a potentially sexual act; breasts are primarily for feeding babies), between "acceptable" and "unacceptable", or "work wear" and "not work wear" are anywhere near as cut and dried as it seems some people here do, and that's surprised me, but it's been interesting.

Anyway - thanks again for the perspectives on this. Hope everyone has a lovely bank holiday.

I agree. I'd almost cope better with a naked bottom as something about the skirt is a kind of overt showcasing device, like a lizard frill or piccadill for the bum!

But school is more than a 'learning algebra' environment. It's a formal environment simialr to a work place. Teach your child to dress appropriately. She won't understand why she gets turned down for jobs if she arrives at interviews wearing a strappy vest top.

I don't want to see men's hairy chests at work, I don't want to see their rear cleavages. I don't want female colleagues with everything hanging out.

Why should teachers have to avert their eyes when they are at work?

I agree that schools are professional working environments and therefore - even on ‘wear your own clothes to school days’ - that standard continues. Pupils and students are there for one purpose only - to learn. it is a workplace and should be respected a such, not least because it instils good habits early on ahead of entering the workplace further down the line.

They can wear what they want outside of school but I think it boils down to respect for learning and respect for the teaching staff, and for each other .

This thread has reminded me of a grown man who was more junior in role and age than most other staff. He was quite a large man who for some reason wore badly fitting low slung trousers that hung below his pant line and both of them sitting below his arse crack line. Each day at work staff copped an eyefull of his sizable arse and arse crack and pants, even more so when leaning forwards on a chair. Always scruffy looking too. No one ever pulled him up about it although he was overlooked for promotion a number of times. So the impact of appropriate wear is real.

Mmm......Do you feel the same about work wear? Would you think it's acceptable in an office etc to wear revealing clothing / bottom revealing skirts? Because it's just a body and we've all got bodies?