Have you ever met a child psychopath?

[TheJuryIsOut]

There's some debate about whether psychopaths are born like that or made as a consequence of their environment/upbringing. If they are born that way (which I believe they are) have you ever met one? What were the signs?

I say this because there is a child in my wider family who I think may be a psychopath, there has been signs from when he was very very young and as he moves through his teenage years things have only got worse. I can't get on board with it being an environment thing as no one else in the family behaves the way he does, it's quite terrifying to think that no matter what you do your child could still go on to do horrific things and not feel a jot of guilt.

What do you think? Are they born or made?

Babies brains can be affected in utero by stress/trauma/substance misuse so even if they are born with issues which may lead them to become psychopaths, it's been caused by lack of nurture before they are even born.
We had a neighbour as a child who I often think displayed traits of being a psychopath (killing animals, attempting to drown another child) and wonder how his life played out.

There are a lot of posters on this thread who don’t understand psychopathy. It’s not just children doing bad stuff or having “dead eyes” 🙄

It's really tricky, because when you work with people (and their brains), there are no certainties. I would at most say that in the case of a large number of violent psychopaths there were childhood markers, but that does not mean that kids who get a conduct disorder diagnosis end up diagnosed as a psychopath. It really is a somewhat opaque interplay of genes and environment and there are no tidy answers. And again, true psychopathy is rare. Your average violent murderer in prison would not qualify for the diagnosis.

Killing was extreme, but Venables didn't seem to understand death was final. His siblings have LDs and he had a very low IQ.
www.thetimes.com/travel/destinations/uk-travel/venables-may-be-stuck-in-his-own-fearful-abusive-childhood-b6bkr5sgzdh
"Research by Professor Eamon McCrory (Clinical, Educational & Health Psychology) has found that children exposed to trauma show the same pattern of activity in their brains as soldiers exposed to combat.
The brains of soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and traumatised children were compared as part of the research. In his interview with the BBC about the research, Professor Eamon McCrory says that experiences of maltreatment and domestic violence in childhood can change the structure of the brain leading to long-term vulnerability to mental health problems." Look up the study.

We need early intervention, the Tory government removed what was in place, which was just about touching the sides.
We know that people are born differently, then it's about early exposure and nurture.

I have worked with several people who could potentially fit the bill. A couple had severe and obvious trauma. The one who haunts me had no obvious trauma, was stunningly beautiful, could be polite and charming. He had very strikingly beautiful eyes which could be very attractive and at other times were utterly dead like the lights had gone out.

I have remembered him for thirty years and would be amazed if he isn't dead or in prison for something heinous.

Even though technically a child cannot be diagnosed with psychopathy under 18, yes I have a friend who worked with one. It was obvious the child was a psychopath due to the harm it had caused to their siblings, animals, parents etc. My friend said “it is terrifying”. It is rare. Heritability can be as high as 70%..

That's true, but I think it's also true that some people's brains are not wired right from birth, so that it's like a switch, more or less dormant, with the outcome of "on" or "off" only truly occuring further down the line. What happens to that child along the way hugely influence whether the switch will end up "on" or "off" for the rest of their life.

I can think of one particular 7 year old, who could be utterly charming, funny, but you could also see the cogs in their brain whizz round in every situation. They were taking EVERYTHING in, you could almost see them planning their next move to benefit them. They clearly thought on a much deeper level than other kids their age. They had an excuse for everything. Just complete manipulation of every situation they were in but didn't seem to feel any sorrow if they'd hurt anyone's feelings. If they DID say sorry, it seemed to be just to move the situation on so the focus wasn't so much on the fact they were in trouble anymore. They seemed to be just parroting what they thought people wanted to hear, didn't seem to feel guilt or real empathy. I don't think I ever saw them cry or seem to be sad, they just displayed anger, quietly seething or just grumpy if they were unable to get their way. But I don't think I saw true remorse. I don't think they had a true friend.

I worry about how that kid will turn out. Their parents were absolutely lovely, and supportive of working together with teachers etc. Clearly loved their child but did not know how to deal with them.

I saw the doc of this! It was interesting cos the guy is high functioning with v healthy relationships and career I think.

If you are interested in this area, I suggest reading "The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog" by Bruce Perry

Not sure if it's been said but in the U.S there are early intervention programmes in some juvenile detention and psychiatric centres. The children don't have the formal diagnosis but they are exhibiting high levels of the traits. I'm sure that people who work with them would confidently state (about some of them) that they have met a child psychopath even if they are under 18.

They aren't - Just because some randoms on the internet decide they must be it doesn't actually overrule the huge amount of psychological and psychiatric assessments they would have gone through.

I'm also not saying that I agree with what they did in anyway it was absolutely horrendous and they should never got out, however that doesn't change the fact that they never actually got diagnosed

There is no switch. Children under 18 are not labelled with any personality disorder because they are rapidly developing. If you observe young children you will see that majority have very egocentric psychopathic traits before they develop theory of mind. These disorders are not like in the movies and there is a lot of overlap in pathology. The main reason formal diagnosis is not done earlier than 18 is due to the development of the frontal lobe which is where “personality” lives so to speak. This is why people with frontotemporal lobe dementia go through massive personality changes. The limbic system that governs impulse and emotion matured faster than the frontal and prefrontal cortex which controls impulses, decision-making etc.

"We had a neighbour as a child who I often think displayed traits of being a psychopath (killing animals, attempting to drown another child) and wonder how his life played out."
I do wonder in the days of hunting and farm work, wouldn't this child be praised? It gave people an outlet. Like the violence against marginalised groups (that was ignored by the police), or the days when we could beat servants etc. It was a societal approved outlet. As adults the lists of jobs that psychopaths are good at, is long.

Yes. A friend’s son. He’s always been that way. Harming others. No empathy. Never doing what he’s told. He’s bright. So school didn’t pick up on any ND. Friend has spent £1000’s having him assessed. They now have a label. He was constantly kicked out of school. Couldn’t ever be left alone with his younger siblings.
It’s devastating.

Yes I have. He was a child I looked after in nursery many years ago. Everyone who worked with him got a strange feeling and me and a colleague both said we just knew we'd read about him one day in the papers.

This.

Back then a lot more people had brain damage - micronutrient deficiencies, birth injuries, childhood abuse etc. so more paychopath adults would likely be around to praise them. I’m sure there were also many adults who recognised it as normal to have to teach young boys to overcome their dislike of killing animals.

So they only attend a ‘comprehensive school or similar’?
I’ll think you’ll find that they’re represented across all schools 🙄

This very much chimes with my experiences of being a drugs worker within the criminal justice system, working for the Youth Offending Team and working in mental health on acute wards and in the community. I rarely worked with serious offenders because that was not my remit, but I came across so many people with mutliple traumas, social and economic deprivation and dislocated and dysfunctional family backgrounds. Some were deeply unpleasant but the majority were just broken by their life experiences.

I grew up with a narcissistic mother and it damaged me badly. I can guarantee you that a sendco would have concluded i come from a normal home when I did anything but. Only mental health professionals with an understanding of narcissistic abuse could have gotten a whiff. Its not always drugs and beatings. There are many types of abuse that are completely invisible but damage the child's development. My brain could literally not develop normally because of the abuse I suffered. Abuse nobody saw.

The YP may well have a diagnosis of conduct disorder as a precursor to an adult diagnosis of psychopathy.

In the teaching profession you certainly do come across some who show psychopathic tendencies. IME most of these haven't lasted in a comprehensive and have been taken to alternative learning facilities. Some have though and there is that spidey vibe, along with personality traits and information on behaviour outside school.

Of course people in child services and related jobs are going to encounter dangerous, sinister, sadistic, provocative, calculated individuals.

It's the ones who are intelligent, can manipulate while appearing sweet and innocent who are the most difficult to identify.

Except that ALL psychiatric diagnoses are a matter of opinion. None of them are diagnosed by biological tests, only by observation of behaviour.

And all the diagnostic criteria in the DSM is a matter of a collective opinion.

So you mean they haven't been able to be assessed as one, this doesn't mean they aren't.

I do know someone who committed a series of terrible crimes who was all but called a psychopath by the judge who sentenced him. He has a 'normal' childhood, although his Father and one of his brothers were sociopaths in corporate way, they had no empathy and cared for noone except themselves. His father had been in the army and regaled everyone with tales of how many people he'd killed so I wonder if outside of that institution he may have harmed someone.. this person committed enough rapes to gain five life sentences and he'd previously been convicted of sexually abusing a child and was on licence at the time of the rapes. He had also planned to kill this victim and had planned it minutely. There is a huge blank about his childhood, he seems to have been in 'alternative' and not mainstream school for a while... All of that information and anything he may have done was not released to the public. We don't know what he'd done before, but there's a chunk missing. On sentencing, the Judge declined to give him place at a mental health facility because despite all the really awful things he told the psych, the probation service etc, they didn't feel he could be treated. This says to me psychopathy. He had killed a family cat and other neighbours cats and at least two dogs before and during his sexual abuse. He has sexually attacked a man, several women and even a trans sex worker, he also raped a mentally impaired woman but wasn't charged with this is as she wasn't competent to be a witness. The judge deemed him to be a danger to all people of all genders and ages, which is highly unusual. He was sentenced to five life sentences at just 25, so he had been at this a very long time. I think he was born that way, he was just so incredibly evil, so devoid of empathy and after his sentencing, there were a few comments online from people who'd been to college with him. People knew, they just couldn't believe what they were feeling about him. He'll be out in about 9 years barring any interventions to keep him there.