Have you ever met a child psychopath?

[TheJuryIsOut]

There's some debate about whether psychopaths are born like that or made as a consequence of their environment/upbringing. If they are born that way (which I believe they are) have you ever met one? What were the signs?

I say this because there is a child in my wider family who I think may be a psychopath, there has been signs from when he was very very young and as he moves through his teenage years things have only got worse. I can't get on board with it being an environment thing as no one else in the family behaves the way he does, it's quite terrifying to think that no matter what you do your child could still go on to do horrific things and not feel a jot of guilt.

What do you think? Are they born or made?

No it means they can't be diagnosed with psychopathy

I taught a child once with very high intelligence but no empathy at all, and apparently no fear or care about consequences. If you held any kind of boundary, he would attack you, adult or child, or break something he knew was valuable. We frequently had to evacuate the classroom because he would get dangerous.

His parents were worse than useless. He was suspended once for attacking my TA. About half an hour later, he walked back into class. He said his Dad had dropped him off and somehow he'd bypassed security and just strolled back in. He said his Dad took him to a coffee shop, bought him a cookie and a juice, then brought him back.

The school was just as bad. They refused to send him home again and said that I would have to "internally exclude" him, which meant sending him to be taught 1-2-1 by the TA who had a bite mark and a large bruise where he'd kicked her.

I sent him to the head of year for deliberately destroying another child's work, she sent him back with a sticker and a lollipop.

The other children would freeze or curl up into a ball when they saw him approaching them. If they had a toy or book he wanted they would just immediately hand it over and hope that it was enough to avoid them getting hit.

I don't know whether he was a psychopath but he was heading that way and it was being facilitated by everyone around him.

Thompson said at his last parole hearing that whilst he regrets that the murder took place, he acknowledges that his life in prison and the education he got there was far better than it would have been had he stayed at home.

Venables wasn't a simple case and he definitely wasn't from a wealthy background, although not as poor as Thompson's. He had a very low IQ and mental health problems which remained untreated. Unfortunately, it seems that whatever is broken inside him can't be mended.

Agreed (except that I didn't say he came from a wealthy background - nor indeed do I believe that wealth would have been a determining factor)

The difference I see is that Venables came from a "normal", relatively structured background - the sort of imperfect but adequate family that many many children experience who grow up to be functional human beings: Thompson OTOH was clearly deeply traumatised by his abusive family.

I think the lesson I'm drawing from that (if one can draw a general conclusion from one case, however extreme) is that children who are going "bad" as a result of trauma can be "saved" from that destiny fairly reliably, given enough resources - which of course most don't get sadly, as this was a truly exceptional case - but that there are also children who are just "different", whose bad behaviour is more innate. And for those children, changing their behaviour is far more complex. Might even just help them learn to manipulate better!

It isn't referring to that, it's referring more of a pattern of impulsive behaviour with a lack of regard to the consequences or taking responsibility for them.

The pattern of stewing and planning revenge is a different aspect, I think.

The question of manipulation skills is an interesting one as to a degree society is built on it. We all operate to some level on the concept of risk versus reward, and societal / cultural / religious / spiritual influence are big driving factors in that.

Most people (I probably naively hope) confine "manipulation" to achieving benign outcomes for all concerned, at least on a surface or obvious level. Manipulation and subterfuge to feed malevolent urges without apparent conscience are terrifying, and aside from immediate undesirable consequences, psycholigical fall out in victims is huge, such as the genuine gas-lighting that can be perpetrated by individuals and authoratative institutions.

Loss of trust and faith is difficult to come back from, and the second guessing is exhausting, as having been fooled, even once, leaves one questioning ones own intelligence and creates a perpetual defensive outlook. It's horrible to have to accept that yes, there are some people who don't give two hoots about your feelings or the negative impact on your life, and if the experience is replicated in other circumstances, it's hard work not viewing new people or situations with suspicion.

In current times I'm struck by how many experiences I and my friends have had with very calculated wolves in sheeps clothing, who have done some dreadful things in terms of breaking trust. Interestingly a good number have EUPD diagnoses, and even when they have been supported despite their actions, it is clear they cannot easily stop themselves. I have immense sympathy for them, but at some point they move onto new friend groups because too many boundaries are crossed, and the complications become above the average persons paygrade, so distance feels like the safer option.

It's sad and tragic for all concerned, but as to the question of whether there is any element of psychopathy or sociopathy involved has never been established, as they do appear to demonstrate remorse and desire to change, can be charming, and yes, manipulative in damaging ways.

This is one of the most interesting contributions to the thread. Terrific example of what others have mentioned, how you can be born with certain things in your nature but the way you're brought up and the experiences you have can make a huge difference to how your personality and character develop. The BBC Horizon documentary about James Fallon, mentioned umpteen times early in the thread, showed that very well.

I work in a school, you are very wrong. There are definitely child psychopaths, they just aren't diagnosed and their behavior usually excused.

Garbage

Rubbish!

I have...Believe you me,he looked like an angel but did hideous things!
And he was way under 18!

His killers were already watching Child's Play. There's a reason that's rated 18.

Isn't this exactly how a lot of people acy about trans kids?

its my personal belief that they are born that way and they lack empathy no matter how much you work with them and provide help. That’s just my opinion though.

Yeah this is true. Theres the case of Paris Bennett who murdered his 4 year old sister when he was 13. He did it to hurt his mother who wasn’t giving him enough attention. He’s now a diagnosed psychopath.
what I found fascinating about it is his grandmother (his mums mum) tried to kill her grandfather when the mum was a child. She was also subsequently diagnosed as a physcopath. So clearly there’s a genetic link.

I grew up with one. Not a sibling but a family member.
He was a horrible kid, tried to kill animals by strangling them, pushed his sibling down the stairs when he was a baby in his pram. Just weird and cruel for absolutely no reason but pleasure.
Killed an animal as an adult. No remorse or empathy for anyone or anything so I don’t know if that makes them a sociopath or a psychopath but the rest of the family are all ok, and there’s no childhood trauma or anything to put it down to. Just an evil kid and an evil adult.
Just because a diagnosis hasn’t been made doesn’t mean it’s not there.

People can stop mentioning that they don’t diagnose psychopathy before age 18. Based on what we now know about people, that needs to be drastically reconsidered. You will only get someone the help they need when they’re diagnosed, and they should be diagnosed as soon as they begin to need help. You need diagnosis to start at the age of criminal responsibility. That’s the age at which society accepts mistakes are no long accidental. If they’re not psychopaths and just misguided, they’ll have grown out of it by then. If that means you need to reconsider the whole “incarceration” system so it focus on rehabilitation and reintegration for both children and adults, that’s no bad thing.

Yes I went to school with one….

Yes I briefly worked for one who was appointed as my Team Leader… I got a role in another Team as I had seen him in action within six weeks!

Absolutely correct. They are few and far between but like autusm, there are different degrees of psychopathy. Some is fuelled by trauma and some children are born like it. Not all psychopaths are equal and society needs them to make those difficult decisions in government, business etc. Take for instance Andy McNabb and Theodore Roosevelt who are both confirmed as high functioning psycopaths and take/took decision that others couldn't make because empathy clouds judgement in some situations. I've encountered traumatised children who develop in such a way to protect themselves from further trauma on many occasions. The brain adapts to the circumstances a developing child finds itself in. Then there are those born without the emotional chip or moral compass that most people develop as they grow up. Some may have developed this way through nature others through nuture or lack of it Some people never harm others even though they have no empathy for another living being. Its complex and no two paychopaths are created equal. Many people have quite obvious markers, others not so much but then it depends on the testing and who's doing it. Many variables come into play when talking about diagnosing psychopathy. Some experts rely on the dark triad as a place to start but the same starting points can be equally attributed to trauma e.g., animal cruelty, bed wetting and fire starting. Diagnosis is not an exact science but they do walk amongst us. Psychopathy exists on a spectrum with only 1-2% of the population being true psychopaths in terms of filling in those boxes on an assessment test and crossing over to the dark side officially.

Listen to the Podcast RedHanded - they talk about this a lot - there are lots of early signs and you may find it helpful to identify them. Many of the sighs are found in people who go onto commit crimes and high functioning (and totally lovely/non-criminal) doctors, lawyers, bankers etc. it’s about desensitising towards feelings and outcomes…

As others have said under 18s cant be diagnosed. There are some conditions that people say are a precursor under 18

It's not a diagnosis any more. It's out dated. It doesn't exist in current diagnostic manuals.

The nearest thing is severe personality disorder with a dissociality trait.

There's an environmental component but like most things it's not as simplistic as made or born - the interaction is complex (for example an attachment disorder in very early childhood could be the result of neglect but can have much more complex origins, say when a child is incredibly ill from birth for many months and parents are unable to cope, and adoption even by fantastic parents can't always meditate the trauma of early neonatal separation and trauma in utero - this can interact with genetics).

Nobody can be diagnosed as a psychopath because it isn't a diagnosis any more - the same way Asperger's syndrome isn't diagnosed any more, multiple personality disorder isn't diagnosed any more, hysteria isn't diagnosed any more, neurosis isn't diagnosed any more...

F

Very true, but still very much used in forensics for specific presentations of ASPD rightly or wrongly.

No

I have met children who’s behaviour is very anti social and most likely on their way to being diagnosed with Anti Social Personality Disorder

I believe it’s more nurture than nature, having worked with a number of men diagnosed with ASPD and men who rated highly of the psychopathy test not one of them had a stable secure upbringing

and often what looks to be on the outside isn’t

and they also don’t fit the popular ideas of being charming, obviously manipulative, intelligent aspects of their personalities are as varied as the rest of the population