Have you ever met a child psychopath?

[TheJuryIsOut]

There's some debate about whether psychopaths are born like that or made as a consequence of their environment/upbringing. If they are born that way (which I believe they are) have you ever met one? What were the signs?

I say this because there is a child in my wider family who I think may be a psychopath, there has been signs from when he was very very young and as he moves through his teenage years things have only got worse. I can't get on board with it being an environment thing as no one else in the family behaves the way he does, it's quite terrifying to think that no matter what you do your child could still go on to do horrific things and not feel a jot of guilt.

What do you think? Are they born or made?

I think it might be that genetic factors mean people who show psychopathic or sociopathic traits are also quite likely to have parents and other close relatives who share those traits, and who are therefore quite likely to abuse them. So abuse and genetic factors may be intersecting.

Great point.

I am sorry to say that I think/fear I have meet a girl who will be, at least, very dangerous in later life. Her ‘weapons’ are exceptionally clever, ambiguous words to manipulate all, including head teachers, into doing what she wants. I’ve never seen anything like it in anyone, far less a child. She thinks several steps ahead and traps her prey, hitting their most vulnerable point. (She would probably be world class at chess if it could be channelled that way.)

In addition there is also a vibe that, frankly, terrifies me.

(By the way, these observations have been made by others too.)

https://archive.ph/wSXdX
I remember reading this article a while ago about "callous unemotional" kids, been wondering what happened to the main child mentioned. Scary.

I don't know enough to answer the OP's question, but I remember the murder of James Bulger (my eldest child was exactly his age) and it shocked me to learn quite recently that Robert Thompson, the boy that we were led to believe at the time was the "leader", a boy from a dysfunctional and violent family, as an adult has not caused any problems, whereas the other boy, Jon Venables, whom the experts all seemed to feel was merely a follower is the one who has been in and out of prison since their release.

So I wonder whether the truth is that Thompson, as a child, was the victim of his upbringing, and was in a way "saved" by being taken away and given far more psychological help than he would ever have had otherwise, whereas (and this is the important bit) Jon Venables had something innate wrong with him that no counselling or psychiatric care could actually cure.

Maybe we don't call someone like that a psychopath before they are fully grown, but it does seem like there was there with Venables right from the start - and maybe an ability to simulate grief and horror was part of that. I think not labeling them too early is more about medicine not being able to safely identify them while still children, rather than there not being such a thing.

One boy in my class at primary school. We were in the same class from 6 years old. He was always hurting animals, bullying other kids, seemed dead behind his eyes and gave seriously weird vibes- I avoided him as much as possible.

He burnt down the reception classrooms aged eight and killed his own 6 month old daughter aged nineteen.

Weren’t those boys subjected to horrific abuse if I remember correctly? It’s a fair comment and not insensitive and definitely no need for the sweary faux surprise.

That's a really interesting article, thanks. From 2012, so the boy is now about 23. It would indeed be fascinating to know what sort of adult he has become.

Only one, Robert Thompson. The other was possibly slightly neglected but not in any obviously traumatising way. And as I said above, it's the latter, Jon Venables, whose behaviour seems to have remained dangerous to others. (Or else Thompson is just cleverer at keeping below the radar - but I suspect it's not that. I think Thompson responded well to the education and treatment he got while in young offenders, and Venables did not.)

One was, one came from a fairly wealthy fsmily and was very spoilt.
John venables, the one who had a spoilt middle class upbringing, turned out to be the instigator. Funny that, his parents had kept makung excuses. He turned into a prolific sex offender and is now locked up again.

Absence of a diagnostic tool does not mean the diagnosis does not exist.

As an analogy:
The world I work in, there is one large company claiming a condition does not exist in dogs because it has to be identified on standing x-ray in humans. Except we don't do those in dogs (for human safety). So, technically, we cannot diagnose it in dogs. Doesn't mean the condition doesn't exist.

Nature is a lot more powerful than nurture.

Their behaviours are a choice behaviour and controlled. They show being in control not lack of.

Most who suffer trauma do not show violence. Most who show violence have not suffered trauma.

It is a choice that they are nasty, mean, violent, abusive etc. That is their choice not something else making them do it.

I taught a child that l was convinced would grow to be a psychopath. Basically displayed all the classic behaviours associated with serial killers. He will be late teens now will not be surprised if he ends up on the news for doing something awful.

Harm OCD doesn't include self-harm. It's about having intrusive and obsessional thoughts about harming others and the thought that there is something wrong with them/they are inherently bad as a result of having these thoughts. Hence why some people with this tell other people about these thoughts in order to get external reinforcement of their "I am bad" thought.

Quite a few people saying on here that they've taught or looked after children who they are worried they'll see has murdered someone on the news in future years.

So what do you do about it? Is there anything like Prevent for these kids?

Interesting chapter in Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt, explores why some children use aggression. Not a light read.

Precisely what I was going to say!!
Mind though, and it’s not an excuse just an explanation, those two boys had a horrible family life so we still don’t know if they were ‘born that way’ or were the products of their environment. I think childhood abuse and trauma would definitely give a propensity but a lot of childhood trauma survivors are able to turn it around and would never harm anyone. I think it depends on their personality too. A bit of nature, a bit of nurture I’d say.

2 in my house right now 🫠 my DCs

We referred the particular child I mentioned to social services many times. Put forward for mental health support and in school counselling but needed parent consent which was a no. From what I remember the DSL was trying to get treatment/support by showing parents were failing duty but they moved schools.

Only 1 did. The main perpetrator John Venables came from a 'naice middle class' family.

Repeated threats to kill people (family, peers, teachers) and these aren't said in the heat of the moment. Very cold, calculated, cruel behaviour. Relentlessly bullied several children to the point some have moved schools and he finds pleasure in hurting/upsetting people. Hurt animals. Made lots of remarks like "I want to be a policeman/in the army when I grow up so I can learn how to use a gun and shoot people", made remarks about news stories where people have been attacked/murdered and detailed how he would do the crime "better". Never shown an ounce of real remorse but is well versed on what to say to make it look like he has remorse (multiple people have commented on this, it is not just coming from me)

I met a child who.later was diagnosed. He was the same person as an adult as he was as a child. Naturally, no diagnosis as a child but he hadn't changed.

Do you understand the difference between a reason and an excuse? It may be helpful to start there.

Sounds like the character in the book 'We need to talk about Kevin'.

I've never met a child like this, or an adult, luckily.

Yup. The girl that bullied my daughter. Thry were both 10 and she was psychologically bullying her. The level of sheer effort and planning involved to make my daughter’s life hell was staggering. Every week something dropped that must have been months in the planning. It was jaw dropping.

The bully’s mother was so nice, so friendly I don’t think anyone knew how to breech the subject of her daughter’s clear psychological issues and fortunately the bully swapped up a new victim every year. It was staggering though.