To think that school should take all kids who want to do Bronze D of E?

[Lessexpected]

Our comp takes the whole year group apart from a handful of students who ‘don’t get a place’, like my child. It’s not transparent how they decide and why they don’t take everything. But all of child’s friends are going and they have felt really isolated about it. And their older sibling got to do it. It’s such a milestone in their progress that I feel like he has been failed some way here.

Context: No behavioural issues, gets loads of awards - just got the character award. But school say it’s their mandate. Yet they advertise it on their website as a key extra-curricular activity (they don’t do many trips). No other trips have been offered this year. We have DBS checks and have offered to help. But school said no. I don’t know any other schools who limit numbers.

I think all DC should have access to do DofE. Could you look for a centre that offers open DofE? My DD did hers through school but DS did his through scouts (during COVID) and foster son did his through our fostering agency. This is an activity I'd support government subsidising instead of theme parks.

You can’t do Silver unless you’ve completed Bronze. Same with Gold. The point is to show commitment. Otherwise everyone would choose to start with Gold.

We need @Lessexpected to clarify school size. While she knows of 5 who didn't get chosen, does she really know every family of that year group (as she suggests?!).

You absolutely can do direct entry at any level of DoE. You need to do longer for each section, but you can start at any level. Basically a previous award gives you a discount on the total length.

Do they also do silver? If they won’t give him a place for bronze can you get them to put him top of the list for silver?

That’s not true, you don’t have to have done bronze to do silver - you can start straight at silver but it just takes longer. Same with gold you can go straight to that at 16 but need to do it for longer - ex DofE manager here so have had experiences of children who haven’t done bronze but did silver.

Our school limits numbers. It’s a ballot so it’s just your luck if you get in or not. One of my sons opted to do it through the Scouts as he knew he’d get a place that way. My other son didn’t get a place (but someone dropped out so got on at last minute)

@Lessexpected YABU.

They had more people apply than they had places. The names were drawn out of a hat and done fairly.

As a teacher who organises trips it's so frustrating when parents moan. It's difficult to staff trips. Teachers are on duty 24-7 (not paid overtime).

I had 35 people apply for a trip I had 25 places for. I used a random name thing to choose who got a place. Some kids then change their mind so I can offer a place to those on reserve.

Its just not feasible to offer everyone a place, even though we would like to.

@SunnyRedSnail it really matters if the entire cohort was 35, ir just 35 applied out of many more.

If a handful more applied, its disappointing. If only a handful are not able to go (say, 60 in year, 55 places) thats appaling organization.

Its not appalling organisation. Its logistics.

You clearly have no idea how tough it is organising a trip. Staff ratios. Bus numbers etc...

55 is a full bus. 60 would require an additional bus which would be another £800+. Plus additional staff for ratio.

My trip had 42 potential people who could apply. 35 applied. 25 places. 28 seater bus. 3 staff. Another bus would have been another £1600 so an extra £60 per child.

There is nothing lazy about offering D of E! It takes up vast amounts of teacher time, all unpaid! What you are proposing is that staff should, on top of the huge time commitment they are already giving for free, give additional swathes of their own free time to organise a selection process? Otherwise they are lazy? Does this honestly sound fair and just to you?

OP, you haven't answered lots of the relevant questions here.

You seem to only have got involved at this point - when the residential is being planned.

Did your dc try to sign up at the beginning of the academic year?

Did your dc want and have plans for the volunteering, physical and skills sections?

It seems from what you have written that you and your dc have only expressed and interest and offered help for the expedition part. At our school this is months into the award with 2 sections having to be completed to allowed to go.

Did you raise the selection system and being left out at beginning?

MC mothers have decided it’s an important milestone they want for UCAS but it absolutely isn’t.

And the children of those MC mothers are probably the ones who get least out of it. They are already doing the extra-curriculars they use for skills. The mothers helicopter them through the volunteering and expedition preparation instead of letting them do it themselves. You see the threads here: Where can my dd do her volunteering? What food should my ds take on his DofE expedition?

And very little appreciation of the time and effort put in by the adults organising it all, as seen on this thread.

I'm also confused as to why many seem to agree it's fair that kids whose parents volunteer to help should be given priority?

If you have parents with the time, skills and motivation to help with D of E, you are already at an advantage, as surely it's very likely that those parents also use their time, skills and motivation to give you other enriching experiences.

Surely it's the kids whose parents can't or won't do this who will benefit most from D of E?

I'm obviously not suggesting those kids should automatically move to the bottom of the list. But not should they be advantaged.

In schools where demand for D of E places outstrips capacity, the only fair ways of allocating places are:

A) lottery system
B) selection process (based on application, references, interview, prior extra curricular involvement, whatever, as long as the criteria are made clear to all involved, and relate to what the child themself does and not their family).

B is in many ways preferable as it gives the kids valuable real life experience of selection processes, but it's a huge investment of time to organise this, so it's not fair to make it an expectation.

I also think it would be reasonable to have a quota in terms of number of students in receipt of FSM, and perhaps gender and ethnicity too if the school currently has inequalities in terms of outcomes for certain groups. I realise that not everyone will agree with me on this.....

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for parents who volunteer to help with D of E - that's a brilliant thing to do - it's not something I have even considered as a parent, so you are better people than me! But it shouldn't be used as a way to circumvent the school's selection process.

Which is why many posters have questioned that as being true.

It is incredibly unlikely that the school have arranged to take 145 / 175 and just left out 5. IF that happened, it would be rubbish, but it almost certainly hasn't.

The OP hasn't answered that point, just mentioned she happens to know 5 people who didn't get a place.

My dd applied when she was at school, and didn't get a place. I knew one other pupil who didn't get a place. I did not then start ranting it is unfair that "only 2 people were left out", I understood there were only 30 places for a school year with 150 pupils in in, so even if some didn't want to apply, there would be plenty of dc who weren't lucky enough to get a place. I just encouraged her to give it a go through another organisation instead.