To think that school should take all kids who want to do Bronze D of E?

[Lessexpected]

Our comp takes the whole year group apart from a handful of students who ‘don’t get a place’, like my child. It’s not transparent how they decide and why they don’t take everything. But all of child’s friends are going and they have felt really isolated about it. And their older sibling got to do it. It’s such a milestone in their progress that I feel like he has been failed some way here.

Context: No behavioural issues, gets loads of awards - just got the character award. But school say it’s their mandate. Yet they advertise it on their website as a key extra-curricular activity (they don’t do many trips). No other trips have been offered this year. We have DBS checks and have offered to help. But school said no. I don’t know any other schools who limit numbers.

I am in a small school now so take the whole year group (60 kids) but when I was in a big 240 year group comp I didn’t have the capacity to run it for more than about 100 kids. The campsites wouldn’t take more than that, I didn’t have enough staff or kit. So I used to prioritise vulnerable kids then do names off a random generator. Those who didn’t get a place and really wanted to do it would do it through an open award centre. I could have taken everyone who applied if I’d run a second set of expeditions but like in most schools running it was a voluntary commitment with no time or money allocated to it and whilst I was willing to give up two weekends for bronze I wasn’t willing to give up four and nor were the teachers who did volunteer to come along…

My child's school run Dofe and in their year only around 30 kids signed up, of those around 10 didn't do the preamble. The school had their own full time outdoors pursuit staff so they run it.

Do you actually know for a fact how many children applied and how many were given a place?

Have you contacted the trip leader to ask how they decide who gets a place and who doesn't?

Was it made clear to the kids when they applied that they could not guarantee they would get a place on the trip?

If they don't have enough staff to take the number of kids who want to go then that's not the schools fault. But YANBU to ask for some clarity about how decisions are made.

My daughter is doing her expedition this weekend, but it's costing £250 as it's outsourced to an external company. I guess it's restrictive in participation in that respect because that's a significant amount of money. The same external company came out and did training walks as day walks earlier in the year on a ratio of 1 assessor to 6 kids. I am not sure how many staff are out with them this weekend. I think they have about 70 kids doing bronze and it's spread over 4 weekends in May as school has a limited amount of kit they can lend to the children, in fact they are currently pleading for kit donations to replace old and tired kit. I imagine it would have been first come first served if they had more people wanting to participate than they could realistically accomodate.

You absolutely should ask the school what the rationale for selection is. They should be transparent about this. It might simply be a limited number of students and first come, first served. It might be names out of a hat. There might be other criteria involved. You can also express your disappointment, request to be added to a waiting list in case someone drops out. That probably won’t change the outcome.
if your child really wants to do DofE there are other options, but perhaps it’s more about doing it with friends at school. How disappointing for them.

Talk to school to understand their criteria. There is always going to be a limit on numbers as there are staff student ratios to consider.
I can completely understand that this might feel like a personal reason and them feeling left out, hence why getting to the reason why they've not been selected is important.
If they really want to do DofE they can independently outside of school, lots of places offer it. You don't need bronze award to progress to gold, which tbh is the only one externally anyone is bothered about. Even then it's far more impressive if a young person has done this or equivalent in their own initiative rather than through school.
Good luck

I have no idea how the school select if there are limited places. Maybe there are youngsters who stand to benefit more from it. It sounds like your youngster is already doing well if winning awards. If DofE is important to you I would look at providers out outside school such as the local scout group. But I’m not sure it’s a particular advantage to have these days. My youngsters were told not to even mention it on their UCAS statements.

Army cadets do Dofe
Bronze/Silver £30
Gold £35

Go and do it with them

Yes through Guiding locally to me it’s £40 for Bronze and they have kit to loan for free. But it’s run by volunteers.

This.

It seems incredibly unlikely to me that the school take all the year group except for a handful, if there are people who want to do it in 'the handful'.

How many are in the year group ?

I think YABVU to "expect" the staff who volunteer to offer an extra curricular activity to be forced to take more people than the number they have reasonable capacity for, but your perception of what has happened suggests the school have been unreasonable. I just think it is very unlikely that is what has actually happened.

No one is entitled to a place. There could be a few reasons why your son didn’t get one - perhaps it is just numbers or first come first serve, or perhaps your child is disruptive, or perhaps they are prioritising disadvantaged children or those who haven’t taken up other extracurricular options. You could ask why your son isn’t allowed to go to help you better accept the school’s decision.

I think it’s fair to say that children want to do it with their friends so it’s more about feeling like you’re missing out on a fun trip with school. We didn’t do it independently as he wasn’t confident in that scenario. Plus the local council was offering an expedition on 30th October!! He is ND so that wasn’t likely to work for him regardless. I just don’t know why you’d take most of the year. It’s a big fat rejection at a sensitive age.

He’s not disruptive. He is a very kind and helpful child.

I live in the kind of town where everyone knows each other! Or know of each other. I know of 4 boys and 1 girl that didn’t get on it.

Thank you for your response. You’ve hit the nail on the head. It was about doing it with his friendship group. They said it was names out of a hat. But they wouldn’t put him at top of list for silver when I asked. He is dyslexic and low self-esteem so this just didn’t help him at all. Plus we live in the kind of place where you see the kids everywhere. It’s just a bit sad. Plus we offered to help! I’d have moved heaven and earth to get him on it but they didn’t want to know. So it annoys me when they talk about it as a perk of the school. Because for him, it hasn’t been!

D of E isn’t some fun school trip to doss about on!! It’s an award where they have to do a significant amount of volunteering and learning skills before the expedition. In all honesty it doesn’t sound like you understand what’s involved!
No they absolutely cannot let your DS jump the queue for silver! They need to have completed the bronze award to have learnt and demonstrated the skills to move on.

The school will have limited places based on staffing and kit availability. There is nothing wrong in that. The staff volunteer their time not only to run it, but also themselves to train to run it. Do you have any idea the responsibility and challenges of having 100 odd teenagers navigating across country from a to b?

They have explained the process to you tho - they can't take everyone so they select the kids at random. Of course you are disappointed as your son wanted to do it - I get that.

But unfortunately his name wasn't chosen. That's nobody's fault. It's a bit like being angry at the weather....

Staff volunteer massive amounts of their time to run D.of.E, all unpaid. Surely you can't be angry that more staff aren't giving up their time for free & why should they? They have families and lives too.

It's disappointing of course. But just just one of those things.

My school can only offer it to a section of the year group, so kids who want to do it apply, get references from staff, and there is an interview process I believe (I am not personally involved). Perhaps this is fairer than a lottery, but it also takes up time, time which staff are volunteering for free in their lunch times, after school etc. It's not reasonable to demand that the staff at your son's school do this.

Also, why shouldn't the school advertise it on their website - it's true that they offer it. Unless they state on the website that places are available for all kids, they aren't lying.

As I said, I get why you are upset, of course. But anger about this is inappropriate - nobody has done anything wrong.

What do you actually think should happen now? What outcome are you hoping for?

Do you know the exact numbers as you have said they take the whole year group, except for a few? That doesn't sound likely in schools I worked in. Usually you end up with about 30 kids from a cohort of 180 who complete the award. It is a lot of admin from the staff perspective and it's not just about going off on outings. The schools I worked in did these on weekends and overlapping school holidays so the students didn't miss lessons so it therefore wouldn't impact who was left in school anyway.
Also the other parts of the award need to be completed by the student themselves e.g. finding a voluntary activity and getting someone to verify that they did it for the duration.
Picking names out of a hat sounds like the best way of managing it if a lot apply, and that could also be why your son's friends all got chosen as their names got picked and his didn't, not that they deliberately didn't choose him.
Can he apply for bronze again next year? As already mentioned he won't be able to just do silver and given priority for this.
Also you could sign your child up to other groups which would increase their friendships outside of school and give opportunities for D of E (my children will be able to do this through scouts if they wanted).

This! It really is not an advantage for UCAS.. They quite rightly don’t care about lists of random expensive extra curricular activities. It’s more what you’ve done to prepare for the course , how your studies have helped and why you want to do a course. The world and his wife does DofE. If anything OP your son doing relevant voluntary and projects off his own back and not for an award, reading around his subject, overcoming the adversity that is his ND etc will be far more beneficial. The one that did it out of my children never mentioned it and the others that didn’t had far more relevant and better things to put in their statement.

I really feel for you. The school are shite. They should take less if only 5 can’t do it. Ours did it in a club you had to go to before and show commitment. Loads dropped out or weren’t picked because they didn’t show up. Much better way of picking .

It really isn’t an important milestone. That’s ridiculous. MC mothers have decided it’s an important milestone they want for UCAS but it absolutely isn’t.

You can only go on the expedition if you’re doing the volunteering, skills and exercise parts too. It’s much more than a school trip. Doesn’t sound like your son is doing those parts so he wouldn’t qualify for the expedition.

In our school the teachers are not paid and voluntarily give up their time to support dc. They will of course be limited on numbers but dc will have been planning routes etc up to this point. You don’t just rock up for a camp.

You feel the school should take a smaller number of children than they have capacity for (meaning more kids miss our) jusr in order to avoid upsetting those who are missing out? That seems strange reasoning. If Dbof E is a good thing, surely we all want as many kids as posssbie to have the experience.

It sucks for OP's son, but that's life. We don't all get everything we want - sometimes you just have to accept it.

It probably depends on school size. Has @Lessexpected actually clarified how many children didn't get selected or is it a possible exaggeration that her son is one of a handful not doing it?
I don't know any school where most of the year do D of E. In the schools I worked in to leave out around 5 kids would mean approx 175 taking part (assuming everyone in the year wanted to).
This is why there is usually only around 30 who do it. To be honest I am not sure the schools I worked in ever had issues with everyone wanting to do it and the numbers were usually fine.

Is it a private school with a very small year group and therefore an expectation that all children do everything as you are paying for the privilege?

All that background is irrelevant and a distraction to they picked names out of a hat because of limited places. If you had have put that in the OP the vote would likely be totally different. YABU

Only leaving 5 is beyond shite and I do not know any school that would do that. Picking names out of a hat is shite and lazy too. Running a club before to see commitment and for kids to try it is far better. Kids will drop out out