To think that school should take all kids who want to do Bronze D of E?

[Lessexpected]

Our comp takes the whole year group apart from a handful of students who ‘don’t get a place’, like my child. It’s not transparent how they decide and why they don’t take everything. But all of child’s friends are going and they have felt really isolated about it. And their older sibling got to do it. It’s such a milestone in their progress that I feel like he has been failed some way here.

Context: No behavioural issues, gets loads of awards - just got the character award. But school say it’s their mandate. Yet they advertise it on their website as a key extra-curricular activity (they don’t do many trips). No other trips have been offered this year. We have DBS checks and have offered to help. But school said no. I don’t know any other schools who limit numbers.

At our school the DC have to write a letter saying why they want to do it and outline what activities they are going to do. I think in dd1's year about 40 kids took part. Dd1 only just about managed to write her letter, but she completed the award but decided not to continue to silver. I don't know if every child got a place who applied. Anyone with a certain number of behaviour points that school year wasn't allowed to take part.

At our school the teacher who runs it does it in his own time so I expect if it’s similar in yours that may limit it. There are other routes to do it, eg Scouts and my youngest did it through air cadets. I did it at school nigh on 40 years ago and hardly anyone did it, now so many do it I don’t think it counts for much the way parents assume b with UCAS etc. My eldest hasn’t done it as Covid struck just when he was of the age, he hasn’t bothered but is a Scout leader now.

I’d suggest they join your local Army Cadet Force. They do way more things, go away regularly and they also do DofE and other qualifications too. I firmly believe that being in ACF and everything he achieved there was a huge part of the reason my son got 5 unconditional offers for uni.

Limiting numbers is one thing but offering trips/activities where all but a handful are allowed to participate seems off to me.

It is limited in ds’s school, I don’t think it is that usual to limit.

@Lessexpected I'm grateful you posted this as I did not know some schools did this.

1. Write to the school stating the reasons this is unfair and asking about the selection process. In your letter (Send by email and mark as important). If you feel your child has experienced discrimination, quote the DoE EQ policy https://www.dofe.org/policies/equal-opportunities/
2. Request a meeting with Headteacher or staff member responsible for the children doing the DoE and write a list of questions to ask them. It may help you prove that it's wrong to exclude some children from the DoE if they really want to do it.
3. If they say the school can only have a set number of children due to safety or risk reasons ask them to be specific about what those safety reasons are. If they need more help, consider whether you can help over weekends when they do the expedition. If you are able to help, then they may allow your child to do it. I wouldn't mind betting 'risk' is a big thing - teachers hate doing risk assessments and to be fair, they are an absolute pain in the arse whatever your profession/job.
4. Cost may be an issue so be prepared with how you may deal with that one.
5. I agree with other suggestions about alternatives like Army Cadets.
6. You could try writing to the CEO of DoE scheme but I don't think it would make much difference but Health & Safety and Risk are something the school have to manage if they are leading it.
7. Good Luck.

Of course they aren’t the ones who benefit most - they all benefit equally! All kids could do with more time outdoors, learning skill and new activities, volunteering for the good of others and learning to be organised to put all this together.

I have a girl and a boy and have never seen schools discriminating against boys - if anything there’s still that slight drag in their favour, accepting lower standards from them etc

This sounds a good suggestion!

I would ask the school to tell you the exact reason why your child didn’t get a place though, and why they’re unwilling to work with you to find a way to let them take part.

If it’s not strictly numbers and they are able to take any more, I do think they should allow them all to take part. I don’t think they should write any kids off as unable to do it until they’ve tried.

Any school trip including DofE expeditions has strict adult to student ratios.
DofE tends to happen at weekends so it involves a large number of staff volunteering to give up their free time unpaid. The school I work at has space for 2/3 of the year group which is allocated by lottery. We run this in house with DofE qualified teachers rather than use a company as it reduces the cost for students greatly. This meant that around 25 members of staff gave up a whole weekend of their time unpaid for these students and we struggle to get this many volunteers. I sometimes wonder if parents understand what goes into organising extra curricular activities and how much relies on the goodwill of staff members.

It’s really common to restrict numbers because the school staff / company they contract can only supervise a fixed number on the expedition.

Of course it’s reasonable to be limited by resources

Is it literally a case of 200 kids in the year and 180 are going?
Or 50 kids are going but it just so happens that all of your child's friends are?

My daughter missed out on DoE at school. They used to allow everyone who applied to do it. Hers was the first year they capped numbers and she missed out. I was furious.

She never got a place on any kinds of school trip but many kids got places on everything. It was very unfair.

In our school, dc have to apply in September. They are then registered on the scheme and have to start all their sections - volunteering, skill and physical.

They review them all at Christmas and say anyone who hasn't started a section cannot continue.

They then get to Easter and say anyone who hasn't completed at least one section can't do the expedition.

They then attend training and planning groups and have to do both a practice and final expedition in the summer term.

If OP DS school is similar then it sounds like he has only really expressed an interest now his peers are preparing for their expeditions. I think all schools would turn down a late entrant at this point in the process.

For those posters demanding more dc get to do these things or that schools take all comers - it is a.massive amount of unpaid extra work for staff and they do it in their own tome. Schools can't ask they run double the number of sessions when they're already doing it for free. The school would need to buy more equipment like tents and stoves too.

If the policy is everyone goes bar a number of students who don’t get a place, your child at least needs to know why he fell into the latter category and what criteria they use.

My DC's school limits places because of staff numbers needed to run the expedition. My DC got a place but others didn't. They don't explain how it was decided.

Sorry OP, that’s really rubbish.

In your shoes I’d draw a line under it and see if you can find a scout group or similar that offers DofE instead. Not all schools offer silver/gold, but scouts often do, so enrolling to do bronze at one of those would provide continuity if he decides to carry on.

YANBU!! But please don't give up - I completely agree that it's such an important milestone - your child can still complete it, but outside of school with a company such as BXM (but there are loads), we have used them and my daughter is now doing gold. Don't give up, despite the ridiculous school decision. He is likely to get a school place for silver as far fewer go on to do the silver.

Usually you have to sign up way in advance with DofE/school (either at the end of last school year or the beginning of this school year. They have to complete 3 things like: 3 months volunteering/ learning a skill and an exercise activity. Did you sign him/her up for this? You have to complete all these things before you go on the trip. And before that they have to go to a few sessions as in learning how to put up a tent, navigating and how to use the stoves etc. If you didn’t sign up for this they cannot just go on this trip.

I can't imagine that the school won't tell you why if you ask directly.

I am sorry he didn’t get a space, could he join next year or some clubs offer it? Ours had about 65 take part in a couple of groups over a couple of weekends. I believe all went who wanted to, but…
it takes quite a few teachers who are prepared to spend (volunteer as not paid), 1 night and 2 days away from family, walk a good 70k steps over 48 hours with blisters, freezing cold (was 1 degree at night on one weekend this year), torrential rain, tantrums etc. however they do it as they believe in it and they do it every year often 3 times a year. I do wonder how many parents would be prepared to do all that unpaid every year when it’s not your own children going. Would be a Safeguarding nightmare for unknown parents to join in, the school won’t know their personality it limits / threat of shouting at “annoying Johnny” who can wind anyone up etc.

possibly they just cannot cover the staffing and have to be school staff, first aid trained etc and physically fit for a very demanding 48 hours. Or maybe they only have enough appropriate kit to lend out for a certain amount of students.

Parents do tend to constantly complain to schools when behind the scenes rhey often do really try their best and often have to randomly choose students to be fair.

When I did DofE back in the dark ages the expedition bit was not just a case of the volunteers being DBS checked, they also needed people who were accredited to teach and assess the expedition skills, and provide appropriate support if needed. This constrained the numbers, so the school set an annual challenge project to decide who got to do it. I think the school should have a policy to say how it was decided who got to go, but they can't be blamed for limiting numbers if they don't have enough suitably trained volunteers.

I run the DofE for my school - I wouldn't limit by numbers (and if I had to for any reason, I would be clear about selection)
I do, however, select who goes on the expedition.

• if they've not attended training, they don't attend the expedition
• behaviour concerns don't attend
• if they've not engaged independently with the other sections of the award they don't attend

I'd start by asking the school (politely/calmly) and then decide what to do from there.

Unfortunately militants like you are the reason many well qualified staff and volunteers no longer do DofE.

If an expedition is done properly it will be supervised by NGB qualified staff at the correct ratio. When this is compromised by entitled parents whining to SLT the qualified staff just withdraw their support. You then have your DC on expedition supervised by the well meaning rather than the well qualified.

Because of this my only involvement in DofE now is as an occasional gold assessor in my own time. It's very well paid too.