Is a more left Labour government what people want?

[punkhairbrush]

I keep hearing statement after statement from Labour MPs and Rayner saying they essentially want a more left version of the Labour Party. From my understanding the majority of the public are fed up with work not paying and whether we like it or not, nothing being done about the welfare state and also illegal immigrants. Surely a more left approach isn’t going to solve either of these issues and will just cause Labour to be even less popular than they are now. Or have I got it all wrong?

@MadderthanMorris Of course it's about quality of migration. I don't think its about origin of migration. Quality is quality, and welcomed from everywhere surely? But we opened the door to unskilled migrants in huge numbers. It was absolute lunacy and it was the beginning of the rot setting in that Farage has exploited. He was pushing on an open door.

If Labour get numbers down to 50k a year, I should think a lot of people will consider that a win. Whether it will be enough to save them, who knows. But there is also a huge problem with our black economy, we just don't know who is here we don't have the administrative procedures in place to keep tabs on people effectively. In Germany, if you move districts you have to give notice when you leave one and have a short amount of time to declare yourself in the next, we could do with some of that ourselves. That's not some Nazi 'papieren, bitte' authoritarianism, it's common sense. We work on a muddle through mentality that might have worked in the 1920s when people were more deferential to authority but its wide open to abuse now and has been abused.

In a nutshell, my opinion is that immigration is too high, it's been too high for a very long time and we have not been sufficiently choosy in who we have allowed in (which every country has the right to be) so it's not only about bringing the numbers down, it's about getting to grips with those who are here who have no right to be. Until we shut down our black economy and stop allowing people access to our state infrastructure when they are unable to prove who they are and why they are here, things will not change. And Farage will keep on marching to No.10 and deliver us proper fascism. I would really rather that didn't happen.

It's not the sole factor, but a major one that Labour seems to think doesn't apply to them.

I mean when I think about the highly trained civil servants and expert advisers working for the government, it never ceases to amaze me that random posters in MN think they might have forgotten about the absolute basics.

But Labour totally ignore the expert advisors! The expert advisors came up with a plan for growth prior to the Labour budgets. Things like moving to scrap stamp duty and scrapping the triple lock, all of which was totally ignored by RR. Too unpopular politically for them I’d imagine.

Governments really don't ignore their advisers. Why would they waste all that time and money? Ministers aren't experts in their fields, they receive guidelines and make policy decisions based on various factors. You make it sound like the incoming government was presented with a blueprint for success and they laughed and tore it up.

A more left-wing Labour is certainly what I want, but a lot of people seem to want Reform which is why they are getting so many votes.

Because the cost is disproportionately high to the number impacted, and I feel the money could have more fairly been spent in a way which benefits all children.

Yes, I didn't expect them to wave a magic wand and make it all perfect overnight. But I also didn't expect them to make things much worse than they already were.

There is a level of personal accountability when having children. Many of us can't afford more children so we don't have them. IMHO the only exceptions to the 2 child cap should be in the case of multiple births (which generally cannot be predicted) and adoption.

If that money was so easy to get from corporations etc, don't you think every government would have done it already.

I do agree with you re the private involvement in healthcare though. I remember working in PFI hospital built under the previous labour government, which was showing major faults within a few weeks of openning, with bits falling off walks and ceilings, lifts breaking, whole wards closed due to leaks etc

Yes. It’s what I want. I want proper Labour, not Tory Lite. But I guess now Reform have done so well in the locals, Labour are going to swing more to the right?

And I don’t think welfare should be cut, especially with the rising cost of food and energy bills

The trouble with "personal accountability" is that it doesn't put food on the table or buy shoes or pay for school trips. The two child cap means children suffer because some voters don't agree with their parents' choices or care that their parents have fallen on hard times.

I dunno. I always feel a bit repulsed by people who advocate for the two child benefit cap. That kind of mealy mouthed unkindness feels alien.

ETA you forgot to mention the exception extended to women whose third child was conceived through rape (unless it was her husband/partner who raped her in which case sorry, no money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2324yp7ygyo

Too long to summarise.

They constantly interfere in markets that are best left alone.

Tourist tax. Some vague fluff to help people with the cost of living crisis. All doomed.
Let the markets decide.

In an ideal world we would fund everything, but everything has limits in reality. In real terms lifting the cap has been funded by cuts in education and healthcare. Some of our teams for children with disabilities have had to effectively close their wait lists, so children with really complex needs are not receiving the same support they did a few years ago. Same with SEN provision, the wait time for EHCP's in our borough has doubled since the start of this parliament.

It's like that programme they did years ago, they got a very idealistic panel to make budget decisions
"Should we fund this treatment to extend the life of 1 mum with young children, it costs X". Panel was 'yes, of course we should'
The presenter -"great, thanks. You now need to call these 30 people whose cataract surgery will now be cancelled and tell them they won't get chance to see their grandchildren as the money has been spent on a young mum'.
Panel 'oh no, they need that surgery'
Presenter 'oh OK,so you want to cancel the young mums treatment'
Panel - arghhhhhhhh

So you like the 2 child cap? What public service do you think should be cut to fund it? A real answer please, not the usual trope of 'cut waste and tax big business', as if that was a novel concept which hadn't been thought of and tried.

As we can't raise much more tax, there is a point when taxing more ends up getting less, due to impact on business, spending etc,I think its called the laffer curve.

No

Labour always have to stay just left of centre to be in power, look at what’s happened when the party have moved further to the left

we do not go too right either and I don’t believe we will at the next election but the result is a wake up call that maybe one day we will

Many of us can't afford more children so we don't have them.

And many people at one point perhaps can afford children then become sick, are made redundant or their partners die on them so then find themselves in the unfortunate position of not being able to afford them. What, in your humble opinion, should we as a country do for people in that predicament, where it’s not quite as black and white as your scenario.

If that money was so easy to get from corporations etc, don't you think every government would have done it already.

No, I don’t, because it would impact their profits which would reduce the bonuses and investments return for their friends/family/donors/voters - they’d much rather skim it off poor people who are worth much less to them, like those who were hit by the two-child cap.

@Clarabell77

If that money was so easy to get from corporations etc, don't you think every government would have done it already.
No, I don’t, because it would impact their profits which would reduce the bonuses and investments return for their friends/family/donors/voters - they’d much rather skim it off poor people who are worth much less to them, like those who were hit by the two-child cap.

It's well known that the multi-nationals CHOOSE to base themselves in "low tax" countries, hence why so many have Head Offices/European Head Offices in Ireland.

If we increase corporation tax further (it's already been increased relatively recently), then more international firms will move offshore to other jurisdictions and not only will we lose their corporation tax, their UK based staff will either relocate or be made redundant, increasing UK unemployment, increasing number of economically inactive people and reduce tax/NIC revenue on their "lost" wages.
Not just head offices either - same applies to factories etc - if we continue to make it harder and more expensive for multi national firms to make things in the UK, they'll simply stop doing it in the long term and make stuff in other countries instead.

If we tax big business more, they will just go abroad, such as Google moving much of their operations to Ireland. 10% of a lot is worth much more than 40% of zero!

Do you not think poverty is expensive? Do you think the two child benefit cap was actually put into place to save money and not as an ideological policy by a government committed to smashing the last vestiges of the post war settlement?

Forgive me but that is extremely naive.

We also need to be VERY careful re the City of London financial services firms, stock market, banks, etc., lots of which could very easily be relocated to another country/(ries). There's not many reasons why they "have to" be located in London or the UK anymore. There already seems to be a "drain" of multinational firms moving to be listed on stock markets in other countries. Lots of the financial services firms have also "offshored" some of their activities to be done in other countries rather than in the UK. We've already lost a huge amount of our manufacturing industry "blue collar" work over the past few decades to "low wage" Eastern economies and now the "white collar" stuff is leaving our shores too! Add in AI and you have to wonder why international firms would choose the UK to do business in when they could get it done far cheaper in other countries (and aided by AI too to help with language barriers etc).

And how does Ireland manage that? Not in small part by being in the European Union. Another thing taken from us by the stop the boats brigade.

We didn't do it when we were in the EU though did we? Ireland has consistently lower corporation tax rates than the UK even when we were part of it. We've only been out of the EU for the last few years - what about the couple of decades beforehand when we were in it during which other EU countries were lowering corporation tax rates to attract multinational firms? There's absolutely no proof that we'd reduce corporation tax rates if we were still in the EU.

Yes they did it before we left.

France and Germanys rates are higher than the UKs, so it’s doable - but then they invest in their public services, not cut them to the bone, or sell them off, and they’re still in the EU. EDF Energy is owned by the French government - making profit to pass on to the French consumer from us UK mugs paying through the nose thanks to the tories and their love of privatisation. Farage and his ilk would be even worse.

But they want us to believe immigrants and people on benefits are the problem.

The electorate have voted pretty much how they voted in the council elections last year, except Reform's vote share went down. Look it up.

Definitely not.

The left has cannibalised itself with nutbag policies and welcomed in vile people like Polanski and Rayner who think they’re morally superior and want to tell us what to do.

The left may have a chance if it brings in solid people with policies that are reasonable like regulated immigration and making work pay with good opportunities. Talking about wars that have nothing to do with us and blokes in skirts is only part of what destroyed the left.

But as I look over to the right, it’s not exactly a pretty site either. They’re just less deranged than the loony left.