To wish parents appreciated their kids’ education more?

[MayasJamas]

Another meet up with middle class parents last night, another inevitable diatribe about how the education system teaches kids nothing but how to pass exams.

As a teacher, I bite my tongue. I truly wish parents could see what young people are actually learning. How the world works (scientifically, sociological, ethically). How to question what they read and hear. How to draw, write, speak, listen. How in English, even in GCSE lessons, we regularly discuss the deepest of human issues: war, love, injustice, misogyny, kindness, religion, prejudice.

I completely agree that the GCSE system is flawed and too much pressure. I have a Y11 child myself and it is too much. But it seems to be a middle class hobby to slag off everything that schools and teachers are trying to do. It’s ironic because, generally speaking, these privileged children are the ones who will benefit most from the education system their parents deride. They’ll go on to study subjects they enjoy at A Level and uni, to have rewarding careers in whatever field they choose. They literally couldn’t do that without education. Generally speaking, teachers and schools are also trying to make those opportinities available to all. I teach underprivileged kids who want to become brain surgeons and journalists and politicians. Education will help them to do that.

But no. ‘It’s just a memory test’. ‘They’re not learning anything relevant to real life’. I don’t want a medal btw, but AIBU to think parents are quick to shit on the system that is actually (on the whole) enriching the lives of their kids?

Why should parents be positive about a school system if all they see is their children stressed, tired, bored and rarely listened to?

When their physical needs - to move, to use a toilet as needed, to have breaks from screens - all these things are ignored.

Secondary school isn't working for many children - despite good attendance too many are 'failing' - or are being failed and leaving without any capacity for that good job/career OP describes.

I don't think school changes anything - the same children from the same families get the same 'good jobs' whether they attend school or not. The same children from those difficult families end up in jail or stuck in a benefits loop.

I don't thing secondary school is doing much at all to improve children's lives and in many cases it makes it worse.

It's not the teachers, it's the fact our society has changed immeasurably and school has not.

They are unfortunately, and more so since the Tories came into power in 2009, a memory test. But they also test all kinds of things. The ability to express a viewpoint (English, RS etc), understanding of events and phenomena (Science, History, marhs), the ability to analyse and see different viewpoints (humanities, English). But also, what young people gain from education should be seen as broader than exam results.

I get your viewpoint - but seriously, people do not become scientists or doctors or lawyers or architects (typically considered ‘good jobs’) whether they attend school or not. That is evidently not the case.

My objection to this is that only one style of handwriting was acceptable. My DS1 went from having very legible but not perfectly joined up handwriting to a tiny illegible mess but the letters joined up the right way so that was better.

That’s particular to your school. My DD just randomly stopped doing joined up handwriting. No idea why but it’s very legible and no one cared at school.

What?

A lot of jobs require writing as a skill. I regularly read documents at work that I actually can't read because the handwriting is illegible. The consequence is a loss of traceability and data. Those things are obviously important or we wouldn't write things down in the first place. I'm a scientist but it's common in health care and many social work jobs to write notes that are vital to the patients.

You would be surprised how many people have awful handwriting. I honestly can't wrap my head around the fact you think writing to a certain standard isn't an important skill.

@MayasJamas Disagree - they need to attend university to train professionally for those jobs and also train in work placements.

They don't need to attend school - they could have obtained those qualifications at any time in their lives - at college, using distance learning or via self directed learning. What they need is access to exam centres.

There are many adults retraining in professions where they failed to pass exams despite years of schooling - but returned to education later in life.

There are many home educated students who have never been to school but take exams and go to university.

There are many apprenticeships now that lead to 'good jobs' - some of those will have entirely 'failed' at school.

I would not limit 'good jobs' to the higher professions that you state - although solicitors and accountants are now using apprenticeships - which indicates dissatisfaction with what school/university provides.

Are these parents going off what they see their own kids learning or what they remember learning in school? My own kids are still in primary and I think a lot of what they learn is great. But my personal experience of secondary was that it was all completely useless, boring, badly taught by unengaged teachers and I don’t think a single bit of it has been relevant to my life after school, apart from giving me the grades to be able to pass exams. This was in the late 90s/early 2000s though so I hope things have changed

The system is shit. Individual schools and teachers can be amazing, good, a bit crap or totally shit. It happens. It’s not a reflection on (all) schools or (all) teachers.

Just like your conversations shouldn’t be a reflection on (all) parents.

exams are still handwritten so being able to write quickly and legibly is an important skill.
I’m an exam invigilator and about 10% of the cohort where I work type their answers, but for everyone else it’s all handwritten.

Re: the handwriting

DS2 is the kind of child genius who makes teachers' eyes light up- he's the classic "little professor", awaiting an autism assessment (and waiting....and waiting...🙄)

His handwriting has always just about struggled to be legible. It's really sad because he writes amazing stuff at school, but I've always struggled to decipher it. When he's allowed to use a tablet or computer, it's a revelation- I can actually read it!

The school dyslexia lead had him do a test to screen for any educational needs, and picked up on the fact that he's hypermobile- so holding a pen and forming letters will always be more difficult- and sometimes painful- for him (he has complained of pain when writing long assignments for English). Yet teachers have always been really reluctant to allow him to use a tablet for writing.

To me, it's akin to forcing a left handed child to write with their right hand. The aids exist- why can't he use them?

I know she’s not responsible for it. That’s pretty much what I said… that it’s the system being criticised, not the teachers themselves. Just that my experience of teachers (I have lots of teacher friends!) is that they tend to take it personally when schools are criticised, even though it shouldn’t be seen as a reflection on them. For that reason, I’d probably avoid discussing it around teachers.

Quickly and legibly doesn’t have to be joined though. In fact, in some cases it’s the joining that makes the writing trickier to read.

The frustrating thing is that it’s irrelevant actually how quickly a child writes, how beautifully presented is and the amazing quality of their work. Not joining? Not meeting expected.

Not all parents think like that.

My ds' school (small, rural, private) has done a brilliant job. My ds is calm, confident, fair, kind, reasoned, thoughtful. As a lone mum, I do my best but the school has added so much more. He's off to uni in September and will cope well, thanks to their hardwork.

Completely agree OP. What gets me is they often make these disparaging remarks in front of their children too. At options evening parents will be browsing the books and other course materials and it's all 'Oh, I can't believe you still do X text - I HATED that, hasn't it been updated yet?' etc etc. Not very helpful really. Many of them (not all, obviously) seem determined to show that they are oh so familiar with it all and it's all oh so dated/dull/irrelevant etc etc. Mind you, that's the ones who actually turn up. Don't get me started on all the families who don't even bother with parents evening/options evening - yes, for some it will be for a good reason but there are definitely some who just cba.

Just to add my children go to private school and my state school teacher friends seem to take that quite personally too, like it’s a criticism of all state school teachers (when obviously it isn’t!). So we don’t talk about any of that stuff 😬.

It's called the 'discourse of derision'.

Why do kids need to learn to write with a pen? Because it teaches them how to grip an object, and you need to develop your grip to use any trade tool. There's currently an increasing problem of children and teens not having the physical gripping attributes.

Why can't my kid use a tablet? Because that has to be an assessed need and we don't have enough assessors, as teachers we're not allowed to make that call.

Why are children with additional needs having such a shitty time? Because funding both in schools and the community (e.g. CAHMS) has been cut to the bone. Both the children and the teachers are being failed by this.

Why does school have to be so constraining? Because this is what parents want. Teachers never thought it was a good idea to swap off-site truancy with mag locks and internal truancy, especially in the toilets. We were forced into 'policing' our local communities because someone somewhere came to the decision that it was no longer the actual police forces' responsibility to do this. Unfortunately, the only way to achieve the desired outcome was to build big fences and hold schools practically in lockdown mode for 6.5 hours a day. Of course, little Johnny's stressed by this. We're all stressed being held captive.

Luckily, there's a simple solution. Parents can stop consenting on their child's behalf. Parents could demand better. After all, a huge percentage of the electorate either currently are, have been, or will be parents. Easier to just blame the teachers though. Simply got to read a few Guardian articles and parrot some random crap.

Yes, I have already acknowledged that.

I teach one of those subjects. Whilst we do have great class discussions in the end I teach them a formulaic rote response to the various 'opinion questions ' because the mark schemes are so prescriptive they won't do well otherwise. The idea that they are secretly learning these great skills by stealth is largely not true.

One of my children couldnt access mainstream education and had a year with no education. I dont think people realise how amazing it is to get this breadth of subjects taught at an appropriate level.

i understand that gcses arent suitable for everyone and i believe there should be other options for a bigger range of people, But if you have the experience of trying to access further education without gcses, you'd be more grateful for a chance to get that magic 4 or 5 passes If you are capable.

I think learning to form your letters and combine them into words and sentences is a massive step to the formation and communication of your ideas. I would be very sad if the education system decided this was unnecessary.

in this case i offer the wisdom and books by john gatto taylor @MayasJamas

This in abundance

I think a fair few teachers take things too personally and get on the defensive unnecessarily. I haven’t seen another profession where someone makes a comment about their personal experience and the people in that sector who were nowhere near that specific situation get so upset.

If the parents feel it’s all become about exam success then that’s how they feel. They were venting about their perception of the system not having a pop at OP.

My DS was struggling in Y3 with handwriting and the stress the school put us under was off the charts. Emails, phone calls, meetings, as though if he couldn’t do joined up writing perfectly by year 4 the rest of his life would be ruined.

I was having a bit of a moan about this with a teacher friend and she took it weirdly personally and did this big long rant about how hard it was for teachers and about the problem with parents and kids. It was baffling.

If I’d had a moan about a situation with my doctors surgery, I doubt medical friends would kick off in defence of the entire NHS and everyone working in it and slag off the patients. They’d realise I’m not criticising every individual member of the medical profession.

In general, I'm extremely appreciative of all that teachers do.

However.

They do seem to think that they work harder than everyone else. Yes, the job is hard, but I bet frontline A and E nurses on a nightshift have it harder.