Interested to know what others think about this article on BBC?

[boundarysponge]

My weekly juggling act - being a teacher to other children and a mum to my own https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yvvr5z2pro

People really hate teachers don’t they?
If teaching was such an easy, cushy number, why do so many people leave it and go and get other jobs? People put themselves in debt to train to do it and they have ‘all the holidays’ (as people say!), yet it’s still not enough to keep them in the profession and they end up leaving and working elsewhere. Does that not tell people something?

Yes there are lots of jobs that are hard work and exhausting, but there’s a real problem in education that they can’t retain teachers and they can’t fill teaching posts. There isn’t that sort of problem in other professions and that’s the key thing here. There must be a reason why an attractive wage and more holidays than most still isn’t enough to keep people in the profession?

Frankly, you only have to spend a day on this forum to see what a large part of the problem is. Useless parents, ND excusing every behaviour, slagging off school rules/uniform/teachers, “why can’t my feral, disruptive child go to prom”… the list goes on.

I left the profession long ago and I wouldn’t go back for all the money in the land. The modern parent is the problem, but the modern parent will continue to blame everyone else, as is their way.

I take my hat off to all those still teaching and fighting the daily battle, but I wouldn’t blame you if you left. Eventually there’ll be nobody to teach children and we will be reliant on using screens to do it. And that’s when society will totally break down.

Yes, @Pricelessadvice , that prom thread was eye opening, wasn’t it?

What I see as a supply teacher is shocking. Not just pupil/parent behaviour but nobody understands that many teachers are off long term sick, with classes being endlessly covered by exploited T.A.’s. This doesn’t appear in any statistics.

Yes, I agree. I have no doubt secondary teaching is difficult, I don’t think everyone is cut out for it and I personally would detest it. In terms of workload though, it sounds pretty usual. I’m a HE lecturer and my days are fairly similar. I don’t teach every day but on non teaching days I’m hard out doing my own research, marking, meetings with students etc.

I have 5 DC ranging in ages from 5-16. DH also works FT in a 9-5 office type job. We get up at 6 as well, 5:30 if I have to teach at 9am. DH drops at breakfast club/ school for the teens and goes to work while I commute an hour to work. He usually collects DC from after school club at 5.30 and I tend to get home around 6pm ish depending on day, sometimes I’m lucky and can get them earlier from the club. We always have work to do at the weekend plus a mountain of laundry and housework to catch up with.

Despite all of this, I wouldn’t say I’m snappy with my children. It’s just the normal rhythm of our household. My DC recognise this is how we afford the house we live in, the food we eat, the holidays we go on, the clothes they wear, the activities we do etc.

The article didn’t really present the issues of teaching and family life - thought most sounded like the issues all working families face. In fact I thought she was better off than most as she has a DH that WFH and surely has more flexibility.

What did resonate with me is the comment she said she makes to her kids as I’ve done the same many times: “I have to put up with being ignored/spoken to like crap at school, I don’t expect it from you”. This is why I’m quitting this year after 26 years. When my kids were at primary I actually didn’t find it tough, even when they didn’t have a parent at an event. Now they are teens I want to be present for them and I can’t. Behaviour is schools is awful. I absorb that and when I get home I just want ti collapse. DD sits her GCSEs next year and DS struggles with homework due to ASD. I want to help them at the weekends, not save up being a parent for the holidays.

I saw this comment and noticed that no one else had replied about dad teachers, so thought I would! DH is a secondary teacher. He's head of department and on the UPS scale, so no complaints about the pay. He is a little bit part-time (works a 9 day fortnight - he had four days a week until our youngest started school last September). I do think it's a hard, exhausting job with a lot of stress, but I don't think it's incomparable to my own job (I also work 0.9). He works longer hours than me in term-time. He leaves the house at 7 and gets back at 5.30, but he very rarely brings work home. I work in the evenings much more often than he does. As he's out of the house longer I do the vast majority of school/childcare runs (I'm confused as to why the teacher in the article does this if her husband wfh). He does very, very little work in the holidays, which is great because he does all the childcare during them. And he's about to enter the bit of the year where he loses all his yr 11 and yr 13 classes, which is bliss - he gets home at 4 everyday then and I stop having to worry about afterschool club pick up or making dinner! I do think the lack of flexibility makes it very hard to have two teacher parents - I do all the assemblies, sports days, inset days etc. because I can just book annual leave to cover. But equally, I doubt I'd be able to use so much of my leave in this way if DH wasn't a teacher because I don't need to worry about making sure I have enough left to cover school holidays. At this time of year where most of the parents I know are trying to sort summer clubs etc I do feel so grateful that we just have that covered.

In short: no, we don't find being a teacher dad incompatible with family life, and generally find it positive for it - but nor, as I suspect the real problem is for a lot of teacher mums, do I expect DH to be doing all household chores and childcare around teaching! In term time I think he probably is doing less than half - in the holidays he very much becomes primary parent.

Shockingly I don’t need you to explain that to me.

Did I expect to work more than my paid hours, of course. But not almost double them.

And if you’d used your comprehension skills you’d be able to see that I understand that teachers do not have the monopoly on this, but the expectation is more in teaching than the private sector. I have done both. And the flexibility isn’t there with teaching as it is with other professions.

My issue with teaching - which you have managed to prove - is the general public consistently dismissing and diminishing the job. As if the line ‘may be required to work reasonable additional hours’ should be understood to be ‘nearly double your paid hours, for free’ and that there are no rights to bring this up as a concern.

Simply, the pay and conditions are better in Scotland.

Many teachers in England are ok with the pay, tbh. It's the conditions that are the issue. If the conditions were better, the pay would feel enough. If the pay were better, the conditions would feel more acceptable.

Teachers in Scotland are contracted to work 35hours pw with 7.5hours non contact time (for preparation and assessment etc).

Teachers in England are contracted to work 32.5hours with 2.5 hours preparation and assessment time.

Total hours worked are probably similar but teachers in Scotland have higher salaries and are paid for more of the work they do.

And the curriculum.is different.

There are many reasons why teaching in England is hard. One of the main ones I've observed is that a lot more time used to be spent in EYFS and KS1 on PSHE issues. Not necessarily in terms of taught curriculum but TAs were available to work with children on friendship and behavioural issues on an ad hoc basis. Or to lead phonics, for example, whilst the teacher did. There was a lot more focus on things like circle time and listening, building a sense of community in class.

Now, TAs are fewer and we have no class based TAs in my school outside of Reception and the focus is all academic. TAs used to fulfill a very important pastoral role in class or be an extra adult to allow the teacher to.

Without this, we see a lot.of low level issues creeping into KS2 around things like poor conflict resolution skills and low resilience that would have previously been addressed in the lower school. As a result, behaviours for learning are poorer alongside increased curriculum content and higher expectations.

The curriculum, as it stands, requires chidren to be regulated and ready/wiling to.learn at all times and the reality is they're not. Because they're children and everything feels huge to them.

That creates increased stress and pressure for teachers who can't afford the time to have a chat with the class or to do an ad hoc pastoral activity because then you'll be even further behind in a curriculum that already can't be taught in the time available.

The children have heightened nervous systems and the teachers have heightened nervous systems.

"Jessica said she isn't my friend anymore," used to feel/be easy to deal with and an important part of educating children on navigating social relationships. Now it's just something that gets in the way of the curriculum. And you've always got an eye on that.

And that's partly why the system is failing. Children aren't empty vessels waiting to be filled with knowledge. They're small people with complex emotions, a range of personal experiences and needs and these are often impossible to meet appropriately when the curriculum is so demanding and there is only 1 adult in class.

Gone.off on a bit of a tangent there! But it's relevant.

ETA I'm also hearing 'exposure to the curriculum' a lot now. If the content can't be accessed, if the childen haven't learnt it (because it's a concept that is beyond their age and understanding) because there was more to cover in the lesson than could be taught effectively in the time available - we are told not to worry, it's just important that they've had exposure to the curriculum.

Public sector recruitment of all types is pretty area dependent. There are places where teaching, NHS and local government are some of the best paying employers in the area, and the obvious choices for graduates, and areas where they very much are not. It doesn't help that the only adjustment for this is London weighting.

My issue with teaching - which you have managed to prove - is the general public consistently dismissing and diminishing the job. As if the line ‘may be required to work reasonable additional hours’ should be understood to be ‘nearly double your paid hours, for free’ and that there are no rights to bring this up as a concern.

Yes. Teaching is the only profession talked about with such derision.

@Tensetickle you could frame it the other way round. That other people in full time jobs (not in teaching) have no clue about the ‘real’ world of teaching?

I worked 5 years in engineering & manufacturing before going into teaching. DH was in sales for 15 years before teaching. He finds teaching primary school far more tiring.

You have to ask why so many young people are not sticking to the profession long term. Obviously the salary, pension & decent holidays aren’t enough to balance out the negatives.

It’s a parenting forum but you don’t hear people complaining about GPs or health visitors or child minders. A lot of GPs are on much better money than teachers and most I know only have to work 4 days a week.

What do you do for a job?

@Sartre I think the difference is that you teach HE & so the students have presumably chosen the subject. Also you get admin time to do other things, and so you are not up front presenting. So you have a good balance of academic research alongside classroom teaching. Staff in schools deliver 4-5 lessons every day & have duties so sometimes no break. I imagine you are busy too but don’t have to deal with poor behaviour in quite the same way.

Tbf, people on here are often complaining about Health Visitors too... 🤷🏻‍♀️

Absolutely all of this. I have literally said those words too.

I've sometimes realised work stress is making me grumpy and snappy at home - and I've seen it in DH (who, as outlined above, is a teacher) too. It's inevitable to an extent - people are human - but I wouldn't accept DH telling our kids that they had to make up for the bad behaviour of kids at school; I don't think that's a fair or reasonable thing to put on them. Similarly, I am fine that he might be more quiet or withdrawn after a tough day, but I don't expect or accept him taking it out on me.

@StillAGoth yes probably! I don’t imagine that is an especially easy job to do either.

I actually think some of the hardest jobs are badly paid - childcare, old people’s care home, dementia care, waitressing, hairdressing, cleaning, customer service call centre. I know sometimes people are well paid in beauty industry but often they aren’t. I think this site is populated with more well paid professionals than is the norm for the population.

I liked the part where she acknowledged she can’t change jobs because she wouldn’t be paid as much.

I also laughed and laughed at the PP who described her job as so different to any other that it can’t be compared.

I think it’s lucky nether of these women work where I do. It would be a very big shock to their system.

😂😂😂😂😂 you don’t hear ppl complain about GPs???? This can’t be serious.

Not to mention the complaint that GPs earn more……surely the answer is to go to medical school? I’ve never met anyone who got into medical school but decided
to do……teaching…..instead but it’s
great to hear such academically capable people are following that path.

What an amazing thread. Brilliant.

@Clonakilla I honestly don’t see daily threads on here about GPs. They are saints in my opinion & deserve better working conditions & better pay. The ones at my surgery go above and beyond regularly & are very caring & thorough. I think however generally they are more respected by the public at large. I don’t see as much GP hate online. I can see how hard students have to work to even get into medical school & it’s likely the most challenging degree. So I very much doubt someone with A* x 3 science A levels would go and train to be a primary school teacher.