To suspect police are worried about vigilantes - Epsom attack

[ReadingCrimeFiction]

I live relatively close to Epsom and so this appalling assault is all over my news feeds and social media.

BBC News - Town left in shock by appalling rape outside church
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8dl5yevjg9o

The police have asked for witnesses but no descriptions have been given. Cue lots of very disturbing posts and comments from people who very clearly think these men are not white.

I can think of half a dozen scenarios where this is not being disclosed but, based on the comments, I think it all comes down to fears that local communities will take it on themselves to "apprehend" anyone who even vaguely looks like the perpetrators? And while the comments I am seeing are mostly white people being disgusting in their assumptions about brown and black people, i can imagine police would he equally concerned if, for example, the woman was Asian or Black and her attackers were white.

Is this where we are at? Where people make horrible racist assumptions and/or where police have to worry about how they will protect the broader community if they give any details of criminals?

Just wanted to post this again in the circumstances...

No, they are saying it did not happen as reported in some of the press.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyxp4q5k93o

And also But because of neanderthal “protestors” they are having to provide updates like these.

Have you got any further negative generalisations to make about these people as you are on quite a roll so far.

What exactly are you basing your views of these people on? You are starting to sound rather prejudiced against a group of people that you haven’t met who are reacting with concern to reports of a terrible attack on a local woman and the local police behaving somewhat strangely.

Incidents are not statistics. Googling is not statistics.

I did do my own research, before asking the question. The statistics quite clearly show that certain demographics are overrepresented BUT no statistic show that immigrants are overwhelmingly likely to be the perpetrators. The riots in Epsom are bases on a made up assumption.

The really important statistic is that 71,227 rapes were recorded by the police in 2024 and the conviction rate was 2.7% (rape crisis figures) so statistics on who was convicted or 3 newspaper articles or 50-85 grooming gangs over years don't justify the assumption that women aren't safe around immigrants. We were never safe.

The police saying that there is no evidence they were involved is not the same as saying they weren’t involved.

They are saying they don’t have enough information about anything to release.

We can draw no conclusions from that.

Have a word with yourselves everyone who jumped to that conclusion.

As I listed on p25, there have been at least three gang rapes leading to convictions in the last 6 months. Gang rape used to be a rare crime. Why do you think the people in and around Epsom don’t have a right to be concerned when it is reported as happening on their doorstep and the police are acting oddly by not releasing any information for a week?

"To date, we have not found any evidence of the offence as reported but the investigation is ongoing".

The offence 'as reported' by the Evening Standard, for e,g is this:

"A victim in her 20s says she was followed after leaving Labyrinth nightclub in Epsom on Friday evening.
She was reportedly raped between 2am and 4am outside Epsom Methodist Church on Ashley Road by several men"

So the police are saying they cannot find any evidence of this.

The reference in their statement about asylum seekers etc specifically addresses a 'community concern' and in no way implies they have any other suspects. And as they say they have no evidence that the offence as reported took place.

Presumably the 'forensic investigations' they refer to include any evidence on the woman's body. It would be very difficult, presumably, for a multiple rape to occur without some form of forensic evidence.

It might take a while to find out where the evidence led - i.e whose hair, DNA etc, but the evidence would be there in police possession nonetheless. But they say they have no evidence.

BUT no statistic show that immigrants are overwhelmingly likely to be the perpetrators.

Good job I didn’t say that then - I wasn’t claiming they were statistics. 🤷‍♀️

So you have acknowledged that certain nationalities are over represented in the crime statistics and you know that we have had a huge influx of men from those countries in the last few years.

I haven’t claimed that only migrants represent a risk to women - you are creating a strawman.

Having a greater number of men here who, as you say, are ‘over represented in the crime stats’ makes us less safe.

Btw, that is rather a glib dismissal of the tens of thousands of girls (maybe hundreds of thousands as referenced in the House of Lords) who are victims of the grooming gangs. I’d say the mind blowing number of victims (and repeated rapes over many years) is enough to be statistically significant. Those girls are clearly less safe aren’t they.

The really important statistic is that 71,227 rapes were recorded by the police in 2024 and the conviction rate was 2.7%

Yes, this is a really important statistic. It demonstrates that justice is rare and the risk of conviction not sufficient to remotely be a deterrent. That’s why prevention is even more important. Limiting the number of men coming here from the demographics that are over represented in the crime stats is one consideration. Surely?

What are your thoughts on practical ways we can reduce the risk of harm to women in the UK?

Yes. Which means the baseless speculation has been, well, baseless.

Sometime around maybe 2009/10 there was a gang rape not far from where I was living at the time, on a route I fairly regularly walked as it led to the top of town.

There was none of this back then, no demands for information from the police, no protests. I'm sure many women in the area were a bit more careful.

Some of the difference is clearly down to social media. But just as clearly there is a minority that gleefully jumps to protest over any sexual assault or rape that they believe may have been committed by anyone either not white or not British - and they care very little when the perpetrator is white British.

I can't find any outcome for the aforementioned gang rape, it clearly didn't make it into the national press, so I can't say if anyone was convicted. I'm pretty sure it turned out the perpetrators were known to the victim.

Yes. But I've quoted an equal number where white men were the perpetrators.

Anyone can cherry pick facts to support their perspective but crucially if you are looking for something you will find it.

You looked for immigrants committing crimes. I looked for white people committing crimes. Guess what? We both found what we were looking for.

The difference is I don't go round assuming all black and brown immigrants or asylum seekers are guilty until proven innocent.

What nonsense to say no evidence that they were involved is not the same as saying they weren't involved. Until they find and convict the perpetrators beyond reasonable doubt EVERY man on the planet is a suspect. Not just the 'foreign looking' ones.

There was none of this back then, no demands for information from the police, no protests. I'm sure many women in the area were a bit more careful.

It’s almost like things were very different 15 years ago. Have you any idea what might have changed? I think it’s rather more than ‘social media’…

Yes. But I've quoted an equal number where white men were the perpetrators.

Where? Were they in the same time frame? Can you link to the details please.

The difference is I don't go round assuming all black and brown immigrants or asylum seekers are guilty until proven innocent.

Nor have I 🤷‍♀️

What nonsense to say no evidence that they were involved is not the same as saying they weren't involved.

Can you just read that back again? Have you heard of the saying ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’?

Until they find and convict the perpetrators beyond reasonable doubt EVERY man on the planet is a suspect.

Yeees. That is my point. You claimed that the police said that immigrants or asylum seekers weren’t involved and were criticising people on that basis. You have just contradicted yourself. They don’t know who was or was not involved yet. Nor do you.

Well, Brexit happened, which interestingly increased hatred against all protected characteristics and made it harder to deal with illegal immigration.

Racism and anti immigrant views have increased and are manipulated by social media, the right wing media and people like the Tories and Reform - the Tories, despite their rhetoric, actually did less than nothing to reduce illegal immigration, and in fact saw an opportunity to funnel taxpayer money to their friends. Labour is actually, despite the mess the Tories left, starting to sort things out, but you won't hear much about that because it doesn't suit the right wing narrative.

Climate change is going to increasingly drive immigration, interesting how many of those most opposed to immigration are also climate change denied.

Have you found the news article about "the 12 year old whose rapists x 3 got off" yet?

@AmateurDad yes read the thread it’s upthread

I know right, if only we could go back to the good old days, when women knew their place and didn’t bother the police with this nonsense.

This Isn’t actually true to you know. Statistically sexual assault these days is mainly by black and south Asian men. This is more shocking because there are less in the uk than white men.

No apologies I see from those who were accusing the police of a cover up or deliberate withholding of information.

Three teenage boys have been cleared of raping a 13-year-old girl.
The boys - two of whom were charged with joint enterprise - were acquitted by a jury at Manchester Crown Court Minshull Street on Wednesday of the alleged rape in Rochdale, Greater Manchester on 10 February 2024.
The boys are now aged 16,15 and 14 respectively and have a legal right to anonymity as they are under 18.

The defendants were acquitted by a jury. Your claim that "3 teenage migrates rape a child and walk free after filming it there you go in plain site" is total bollocks as they were found Not Guilty.

As pp said, they didn't walk free. But how do you know the boys were immigrants?

Do you think that the number of mostly men either illegally entering our country or exploiting the asylum system by initially entering on student visas and then claiming asylum or as the BBC recently exposed, falsely claiming they are gay or victims of dv and impacting the lives of people in the communities where they are housed might have something to do with it?

Do you think people might be slightly perturbed by the governments lack of meaningful action and the apparent power of the human rights lawyers to prevent the deportation of even the worst criminals. Some of whom have gone onto commit more crime here?

I think you are very unreasonable to ascribe public feeling to an increase in ‘racist and anti immigrant views’. As a country we have not got control of our borders. While I’m sure most migrants intend to be law abiding and productive citizens, we know that we also have serious criminals and even terrorists entering on small boats.

Our population has grown by 10 million since 2000 and immigration has reached reported record highs more recently with 1,469,000 people entering the country in 2023 as one example. The final net migration figure for that year was 906,000 because so many people left the country. The majority of incoming migrants are from non EU countries.

We also know that the authorities and organisations like the BBC are lying to us. Check out which bit of information is missing from the BBCs report on this terrorist asylum seeker convicted of rape here.

Confidence in the impartiality of the police is at an all time low. Confidence in the government around immigration management their attempts to shut down free speech is at an all time low. This is based on their actions, not ‘right wing’ sentiment.

You claim objections to this huge influx of people is racism and ‘anti immigrant’ feelings. Successive governments have identified it as an issue and repeatedly promised action and even Shabana Mahmood has said that it’s a huge problem that she needs to tackle. Are you calling all them racists as well?

interesting how many of those most opposed to immigration are also climate change denied.

Do you have any evidence for this? Which aspects of climate change have generated the demographics currently migrating to our country? Pakistan is the country of origin for the highest number of immigrants - can you clarify what climate change is happening specifically in Pakistan that is happening less elsewhere in the region?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15108555/Egyptian-illegal-migrant-raped-woman-Hyde-Park-terror-Turkey.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gv24w9vr8o?app-referrer=deep-link

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migration-advisory-committee-report-on-net-migration/net-migration-report-accessible

Yep women shouldn’t raise any concerns.

Why does anyone need to apologise?

A gang rape in a small town is reported and the police go quiet for a week.

At a time when confidence in the police and authorities is at an all time low, rapes are at an all time high, the CPS charge rate is risible (as PP pointed out earlier) - people get worried and upset - what’s unreasonable about that?

In a country where 30 people per day get arrested for social media posting, yet 89% of sexual or violent crimes go unsolved, and the government are trying hard to shut down free speech, sometimes turning up to make your concerns heard is all that’s left.

hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2025-07-17/debates/F807CB70-D90D-4A19-9433-99539B7CF21F/OnlineCommunicationOffenceArrests

So the protestors were actually protesting at the poor conviction rate for rape? Is that what you genuinely believe?