To think it's unfair to sell your home to fund care when older while others pay nothing.

[SonnyHoney]

I provide healthcare services to older people, which means I regularly visit care homes. It’s something I find quite upsetting at times. I see individuals who have worked hard all their lives, paid off their mortgages, and are now facing care home fees of around £2,000 a week.

Meanwhile, others are living in the same care homes with their costs largely covered, aside from a contribution from their pension.

I say this as someone from a working-class background and daughter of an immigrant (El salvador) who has had to work incredibly hard to get to where I am financially. I’m also very aware that one day my own parents may have to sell their home to fund their care.
My mum, for example, has run a cleaning business for years, she’s up early every morning and has worked long, physically demanding hours. She hopes to pass something on, but realistically, I feel it will likely be used to cover care costs .

Before anyone says “Why don’t you just care for her yourself and keep the house?” And of course, if I’m in a position to do that, I will. But the reality is that with older age, there can come a point where needs become too complex, and care at home is no longer possible.

Obviously, those who don't have houses to sell need care and have to go to a care home, but my point is it just feels unfair, really.

And no offence to people who work in care as I have friends who do but honestly it’s minimum care. 2k private or 2k council. It’s as little as they can get away with selling you.

I think reading the post you refer to it would seem that the parents home was rented
Had they not have rented their house, mum would have had the exact same care for free and dad would still be living in the ‘home’ they shared

I deal with the financial side of this scenario. How do you propose adult social care be funded? Local authorities are already going bankrupt and that's with users contributing.

But with deaths out numbering births care homes will go bust.

What about the system in ROI (Ireland)? I think it looks very generous and fair to all. Actually it's called the Nursing Home support scheme and is known as the Fair Deal. I looked at the details (my Irish friend's mother avails of it).

So in a nutshell no matter who you are or what your means, the State will provide NH care by taking 80% of your income and 7.5% of your assets - but the % on the family home asset is only for a max of 3 years. Furthermore if someone owns their property, they can let it out tax free for the duration of the NH occupation.

So no matter what a property is worth, the max the Government will take is 22.5% of the value of the home per annum over 3 years, then no more than that. The 22.5% can be deferred until death or sale of property. No one has to sell their property to fund their care. There is no distinction made between those on low incomes without assets, and those with.

Those with very large incomes can choose not to avail of the scheme at all, and it often works out better if they don't, since generous tax reliefs are available against NH costs at the higher rate of tax.

Caveat - I may have got some of the sums wrong, but here's the link anyway if you're interested. Looks like a move to Ireland would be good if possible - to avail of this!

www2.hse.ie/services/schemes-allowances/fair-deal-scheme/financial-assessment/

What do y'all think of that system?

I don’t understand.

'You pay or have paid to live in your house'

Exactly. We have paid for our houses, paid. They belong to us.

@ElleneAsanto it's not easy at all. If they live far away and are unpleasant.

Certainly not easy when they take more notice of a cleaner or the window cleaner than their own daughter ( who has their best interests at heart)

That's great if you can afford to knock full-time work on the head in your 50s to do it, or younger depending on the age of your parents. These days, with the average age of parenthood increasing, many are faced with caring for their parents whilst looking after young children.

In a lot of these famed countries where it's all this lovely intergenerational care, the burden falls heavily on the women of the family. Sometimes the needs are high and the carers, however loving and well-meaning, can't cope. The reality of being in a situation where there is little choice but to care for your own isn't quite the romantic ideal I think those who haven't yet been in that position see it.

More and more people in this country ARE caring for their own parents, and are struggling massively, because there isn't the support. Then, of course, as a result of their caring duties, they end up receiving UC because they've been forced to drop their hours, bringing the family income low enough to need help. Not everyone doing this will get a big inheritance that will put them in a better position for their own retirement. So the government still ends up paying, and there's another thread moaning about how much people get on UC.

Terrifying. It's disgraceful elderly people are so undervalued by society.

This is what would have vexed FIL. When we were looking it was £900 ish per week for the homes that took council funded residents and about £1100 for the fully private one. The cheaper one was like a hospital with Lino floors and basic battered furniture, the other was like a hotel with thick carpets and cosy furniture. So all of the fees were spent on you, not subsidising others.

But let’s say I work another 14 years. That’s 14 more years of wonderful holidays and memories whilst I’m young enough to enjoy my life. I haven’t regretted the last 25 years of working and enjoying lavish vacations. I could have had a few hundred thousand saved by now if I hadn’t.

And then I sell my house and take my pension lump sum. We can gift DS plenty, pay for a new kitchen for him, or a car etc. We’d probably have enough to live a luxurious lifestyle for at least another 15 years.

After that, who cares? I watched my nan age, not wanting to go anywhere; not enjoying life; and actively saying she was ready. Why do I care about money or comfort at that point? Enjoy now; don’t worry about tomorrow.

Actually, I very much would be prepared to pay more tax. If I could have the sort of wraparound care you have or used to have in, say, Denmark, I would not resent paying for it. I know I’m not alone in this but maybe that’s my bubble.

And I heartily wish that Thatcher had had the sense to do with the North sea oil money what Norway did. That would’ve benefited us all. But it’s devil take the hindmost in this country.

I do not begrudge paying for care for those who’ve not been able to earn much. I have had far more out of the NHS than I ever put into it and on the salary I had at its highest, I should’ve been a net contributor.

Tough. Quit moaning. 200 countries on this planet, guess what? - everyone on the planet gets old. Everyone. Guess what? - everyone on the planet when they get old their kids are expected to look after them.

if you don’t want to look after your parents because you’d rather relax & watch Netflix in the evenings & relax at the weekends instead of wiping bottoms.

Then sure - you pay someone else to do this.

That is standard all around the world. Either DIY and be a slave for years. OR lose a house & get someone else to do the grunt work.

oh yeh - in this country, we ALL work very hard since the age of 16 years old. Just because you have family who worked hard, that doesn’t mean you get a free pass.

thank yourself lucky - some poor countries they just dump their elderly parents by the side of the road, push them off cliffs, or throw them in the river.

If you want residential/nursing care to be free for everyone, we would all need to pay more tax. Would you be happy with that instead?

It might help if the Care Quality Commission were up to scratch. They aren’t.
Cut and paste reviews for care homes ( self funded ones) and you cannot tell the difference between them. When I read a report I expect to almost know which care home they are talking about. And boy, self funded can be very different in standards.
I have to say I wasn’t impressed by any self funded homes I have seen. Talk a lot about providing this and that. Brochures with pictures of rooms that are vastly different from the one your parent ends up in. I could write a long list.

The whole social care sector needs someone to sort it out.

Plus a lot of these countries had lower life expectancy until recently. Notably in China, Japan, Korea, India etc there's more women avoiding marriage or trying to avoid caring for PILs for decades (as it's usually dh's parents they care for rather than their own)

But say a couple own a home as tenants in common. They have children. Partner 1 goes into a home, then dies, passing their half of the marital home to their children. Partner 2 then goes into a home - the house can’t be sold at that point to fund care home fees for the second parent as the children own half of the house.

So maybe they lived in a private rented property, and when mum went into care, dad could no longer afford to pay the rent for that property and had to move to a council house? The care home would take any benefits she would receive, any state pension, and half of any occupational pension she may have to pay towards her care costs....
Because if they owned their own home, no matter wether joint tenants, or tenants in common, then the property's is disregarded in any financial assessment if a spouse still lives in the house

So you weren't saving for a rainy day, you were saving so you could feel superior and above others in the future.

But it has paid off for them. They’ve had a secure home. It’s those inheriting who it might not pay off for, but they didn’t work hard for it.

Agree
@GlazedCherries

@Lougle they can’t leave anything because they haven’t saved anything

Whereas Glazed cherries example can’t leave anything because they’ve had to spend it on something others get for free whilst vast sums of their savings are also used to spend on complete strangers living in the same care home.

The whole social care sector needs someone to sort it out

You are not wrong there. But governments of all stripes have kicked that can down the road.

YANBU, those who have contributed the least in to the system are the ones reaping the benefits. Those who have worked all their lives for financial security end up still paying even when they are at their most vulnerable.

Totally agree with this. One of the arguments against assisted dying is that people will feel that they should, so that they are not a burden on their family, but imagine your parents/grandparents deciding that as their health is deteriorating and they may need care, they should kill themselves so that you can have an inheritance.
I'm not against assisted dying, for the right reasons, but so your family can have your estate when you are dead isn't one of them.