To think the junior / resident doctors are greedy, selfish, entitled & lazy?

[SpottyAlpaca]

So the resident doctors are out on strike. Yet again. Patients are being inconvenienced & treatments delayed. Yet again.

They have received a pay rise of 28.9% over that last 3 years, which is by far the highest increase of any group in the public sector. Very few people in the private sector, who ultimately pay the doctors’ salaries, have received anything like as much. Very few of their patients will ever earn as much as a resident doctor. Yet still it’s not enough and they are demanding even more.

Doctors do an important job and deserve to be paid properly for it. But the BMA’s current approach is completely unreasonable and deluded. They talk about “pay restoration’ to 2008 levels but that’s completely unrealistic. The country is poorer now & simply can’t afford it. AIBU to think they should get back to work?

And even so I think a dr should be paid more.

Exactly what I was going to say and a lot of cleaners get cash in hand in some areas.

MP's get paid a touch under 100k, no training required. If we don't treat our junior doctors well they will leave for countries with better pay.

The work is there obviously, in terms of patient needs. A huge number of people are on NHS waiting lists.

What is missing is PAID work and this is a deliberate political decision.

The NHS long term plan is essentially very doctor- lite, with non doctors delivering healthcare. Lots of appointments with non doctors, instead of a doctor who is needed to see and sort.

Expect this to get much worse over the coming years.

Whatever they call it, it's not medicine.

They are holding the government to ransom now . After all they’ve took strike action 15 times in 3 years !!! That smacks of taking the proverbial P … it has to stop

But the new ones weren't signed up to anything in 2008. My DH is studying medicine in London. He was a toddler in 2008. So the newly qualified ones were probably n primary school. So it's what they signed up for more in 2019/20

This is an out of date argument. Current working conditions for Doctors and nurses are absolutely horrendous.

No they are not, some shifts are stressful and others not - please tell me what is horrendous.

And every doctor and nurse has time for a pee and sandwich on a shift - as I said previously.

These people are up to their eyeballs in student debt and they don’t earn enough. They literally have people’s lives in their hands! Give your head a wobble

After tax and contributions it's 14 pounds an hour?

What are they complaining about then?

I don't see why people in guaranteed jobs with fat pensions in a profession where people often retire in their 50s are complaining? With a few years seniority they will be on over 100k. Where is the issue?

I thought it was hit the hills!

In 2008 junior doctors worked 72 hours per week. The average now, after European working time directive,is 48. They can hardly expect to earn the equivalent while working 60% of the hours. (And consequently not being as well trained.)

And yes I know that some weeks they might work more than 48 hours, but legally the hours must average that over the year.

they do not get overtime unless they are consultants - what are you talking about, yes they do get paid over time as residents.

There is so much utter rubbish about what they do - standing for 12 hrs, no time to pee, drink this is simply not true

Yes - I know how long it takes to be a consultant as I worked in the NHS for 25 years as a workforce planner.

And yes, I had to pay for parking so why shouldn't doctors? Are they "special"?

I have a regular outpatient appointment at my local eye clinic on Thursday afternoon and I expect to see at least two resident doctors. I'm pretty certain they will have had time to "sip some water and have a lunchbreak" as I usually see them in the canteen before my appointment.

They'll also be sitting down throughout the consultation and not walking 20.000 steps.

Yes - some resident doctors might have a hard job, but by no means all of them do.

After the last pay settlement they are now taking the piss

It's low in the first two foundation years but quickly progresses.

In those first two years they may have a lot of academic knowledge but not much of a skill set in relative terms

Doctors as a group got a great deal out of the 2008 contract and it cost the NHS a lot more than expected because the Department of Health couldn't correctly count the full time equivalent number of consultants working in the NHS

I support them. They could be making well over six figures if they had pursued finance or big law.

My son had a couple of hospital stints (neonatal and then PICU), I recall so clearly some of those faces leaving late in the evening and then being back super early in the morning, probably they just had the time to sleep, eat and have a shower.

The level of personal sacrifice, pressure, mental load, need of ongoing training etc must be unreal.

And yes I know that some weeks they might work more than 48 hours, but legally the hours must average that over the year.

Unless you opt out of the WTD agreement. Which you aren't supposed to be pressured into doing. But what happens when you're trying to progress and everybody else in your team agrees to work more? Plenty of people do feel pressured.

The doctors that decide to strike have their pay docked for the days they don't come in. NHS managers are going to the wards to check who is in and who isn't.
Those who have mortgages, child care and other financial responsibilities are generally in. Those that also need to log hours of training in (surgical specialties) are also in. Consultants are also working collaboratively and are covering where there are gaps. The inability to make a deal is a political one. The BMA has their agenda and the government has theirs. The aim ultimately shd be to produce capable doctors post cct because the way things are going, I am not sure this will happen.

Junior doctors claim they have ADHD to avoid night shifts

From The Telegraph

Is there any way to link increased pay to better patient outcomes (taking into account that in deprived areas they will be worse)? As somebody disabled by decades worth of gaslighting and poor care (mostly from consultants and GPs to be fair but I presume they started developing their crappy attitudes and work ethics as junior doctors), it's very clear there's huge room for improvement, somewhere along the line.

In the last trust I worked in staff were not permitted to opt out because the board were terrified that if a patient suffered - or god forbid died - from substandard clinical care and the staff involved had on average been working over 48 hours per week, the trust would get hammered.

But the unions didn't like that...

Yes we need to keep drs. Not lose them. Pay and conditions here should be very good here if we want the best to stay

Nurses are also wonderful people. Deserve better pay too.

I was thinking that too.

Two of my DC are Doctors and have partners who are doctors. They all work extremely hard and have shit working conditions. Nights can be brutal and the hours can be crazy. Throw in the fact that they all still seem to be taking (expensive) exams even though they are in their 30’s and having to hustle to complete their specialist training it’s a lot of work for the money. My other two kids do normal ‘professional’ jobs in finance and earn more and work less hours.
I glad that my kids who are Doctors love their work so much.

They work insane hours, under intense pressure. Pro rata their pay to an hourly rate and you'll find it's not that great, particularly when you factor in the level of qualifications required and the responsibility that comes with their role.