To think the junior / resident doctors are greedy, selfish, entitled & lazy?

[SpottyAlpaca]

So the resident doctors are out on strike. Yet again. Patients are being inconvenienced & treatments delayed. Yet again.

They have received a pay rise of 28.9% over that last 3 years, which is by far the highest increase of any group in the public sector. Very few people in the private sector, who ultimately pay the doctors’ salaries, have received anything like as much. Very few of their patients will ever earn as much as a resident doctor. Yet still it’s not enough and they are demanding even more.

Doctors do an important job and deserve to be paid properly for it. But the BMA’s current approach is completely unreasonable and deluded. They talk about “pay restoration’ to 2008 levels but that’s completely unrealistic. The country is poorer now & simply can’t afford it. AIBU to think they should get back to work?

What is the current salary range of a junior doctor?

Literally no one in ANY sector earns in line with 2008 inflation adjusted wages

This is what bothers me about their demands and why I don't support them.

Knowing their worth doesn’t make them lazy, entitled or selfish.

‘Literally no one in ANY sector earns in line with 2008 inflation adjusted wages. Not saying that’s right but well……we are where we are
So that seems a bloody stupid line to draw in the sand.’

That’s not true. Average real pay is just above. 2008 levels (which is still terrible) but doctors are still 21% lower. Teachers have also really suffered.

These are also professions with shortages. Doctors need to be given both the pay and respect they deserve.

I hate seeing them strike but what alternatives do they have?

I don’t think they’re lazy and think they have some valid points but I do think they’re deluded re the pay increase they want and it doesn’t reflect well on them.

You do understand where the money which pays public sector workers’ salaries in the first place comes from?
The taxes (both direct & indirect) which public sector workers pay are effectively the government clawing back with one hand a chunk of what it has just payed out with the other.

They aren’t lazy. You definitely don’t work in a hospital around doctors if you think they’re lazy! I’m a specialist nurse and always think, why on earth would they do that job? It’s such hard work; no breaks, low pay. Ridiculous

I think we have to ask ourselves why the country is so much poorer and look at the best ways of remedying that! None of which are going to be paying drs less.

Drs are highly skilled and trained. They earn a fraction of what they could earn in many countries here in the UK. If we don’t up our game, no British young people are going to want to train as drs and no foreign drs will want to come here.

I don’t know for sure, but my guess would be that almost everyone - private and public sector - has lost pay in real terms since 2008.

Yes, this. ^

From NHS careers page:

In Foundation training, you will earn a basic salary of £38,831 to £44,439 (from 1 April 2025).
If you’re a doctor starting your specialist training in 2025 your basic salary will be £52,656 to £73,992.

Greedy, selfish, entitled and lazy? Well not in my recent experience.

the resident doctors I saw recently in A@E, Resuscitation unit and Gastro ward, were delightful, respectful and generally all lovely.

Do I think they are misguided in their demands? A bit. They've been treated woefully for years, but to demand more on top of the 20+% , given the countries economic (not to mention the worlds) situation seems more than a tad naive.

The BMA has lost the plot.
It no longer understands biological facts, economics or public sentiment.

This is exactly what I was going to say.

OP, I might have agreed with you until you posted that ridiculous comment.

No I think you’re being unreasonable. I think everyone should be paid more

People in mumsnet are funny ! They defend hairdresser and cleaners asking for £25 an hour and a lot more but you think junior doctors who get paid a a misery are greedy

Have you ever worked as a medical doctor?

If not, you have no fucking leg to stand on.

I support them.

I also think as some of the smartest and useful people in our society we shouldn’t compare them constantly to other public sector workers who often have far less choice of career and are in far less demand in society.

just one example- I have a friend who is a consultant- my exs school mate- they were at Oxford together and he’s the only one in their group isn’t earning hundreds of thousands a year moving money about. Instead he’s in theatre 7am, fixing people up. Thank god such an intelligent talented person chose that. That’s the calibre of medic we need.

They deserve good pay. But its all relative, you cant just blackmail blood out of a stone, and they are already better treated than vast amounts of the population who deserve much better pay than they get as well, who haven’t got close to the benefits and increases doctors have got.

https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/resident-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-resident-doctors-in-england

Bear in mind, they are already paying back student loans, whilst taking out further loans to continue their studies

They have to pay loans, fees, indemnity insurance, exam fees, learning materials and all living and travel expenses

Getting to study to higher levels means travel hundreds of miles to other hospitals, they may not get to specialise in their preferred fields (ending up in Diabetes & Endocrinology, instead of Gynaecology or General Surgery) and the loans rates keep rising

There aren't enough FY placements for all the doctors who want to learn and people are being held back, at their own expense

By the time they qualify, they owe more than most houses are worth

They are bring dragged backwards in ways previous generations were not, with stipends, grants and doctors' accommodation on hospital grounds all things of the past

At their lowest rates, they are effectively netting Band 2 money, which is about £1690 a month

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates

What does HTH mean?

I think potentially some rebalancing would help - so give more now in the salary when they’re starting out and need it, and less into the pension which was the reason pension rules had to be changed to allow for consultants exceeding the cap in the pension pots - maybe that would help?

HTH means Hope This Helps.

You can Google acronyms and it will find options for you 🙂
It's how I found out what they meant when I first joined!

HTH 😄

I work with doctors. Some are lazy. And the BMA is completely politically captured and greedy. They’ve had decent pay ruses, in excess of anybody else in the NHS. They were behind in the first place because they have insisted on maintaining a separate contract. Doctors get paid breaks which no other nhs group does. They also get a place to stay or taxi home after long shifts which no other nhs worker does by contract. If going on mat leave they don’t have to have stayed with the same employer, they can move hospital (often required during training). So yes actually they are in a privileged position and they should get back to work.
btw the BMA is in dispute with its own employees who’ve been offered a much lower pay rise than they are seeking for themselves.

Have you watched This is Going to Hurt? An interesting watch.