Scouts going mixed sex and the rise of toxic masculinity

[wobblychristmastree]

When scouts decided to go mixed sex for all sections a lot of boys who would have had a healthy boy only space and strong male role models then suddenly didn’t. And these boys are now young men and some of them a producing the manosphere podcasts and spreading their toxic masculinity crap. The timing is right.

AIBU to think boys still need healthy boy only spaces, and strong male role models? and scouts have let them down..

No, for unrelated reasons

You’ve totally missed the point and are conflating 2 issues.

the issue is lack of boy only spaces leaving a gap for the toxic masculinity to emerge. NOT that Boy Scouts end up as Andrew Tate because they have to interact with girls 🙄

It's not banned though, is it?
If strong male leaders felt inclined, they are welcome to open a boys only group.

But men don't want to waste their time on shit that doesn't negatively affect them. They can't be arsed to spend their free time being a positive influence on young boys.

It's fuck all to do with scouts and everything to do with men.

Did they go mixed sex because there were not enough people joining.

I think toxic masculinity builds up mainly in boys only spaces.

Girls have been in Explorer Scouts (formerly known as Venture Scouts) since 1976, and in all sections of scouting since 1992. I’m pretty certain Scouting is not producing a steady stream of bigoted nationalists.

As an Explorer leader, of a mixed group, what I am certain of is that boys and girls benefit massively from socialising and working together in an equitable, non-competitive, non-academic, non-romantic environment as teenagers.

I wonder then if you are assuming a lack of strong male role models? In our district, from scouts upwards leaders are, with very few exceptions, men. There are some women cub leaders, but there are men too.

Most scouting leaders are women.

No.
Around 45% of volunteers with Scouts in UK are women.

That means 'most' are men.

Speaking from personal experience. I was one once and most volunteers were female

i guess the whole peado thing of the 70/80/90s made it tricky to recruit good leaders and made parents less keen on letting their kids go into the woods woth the scouts.

you’re right it would be good for boys to have good male role models.

Anecdotally, because that was the case in your Group at that particular time though, doesn't make it a fact.

A lot of the meetings I go to, I am the only woman there. That doesn't mean that less than 10% of volunteers are women, either.

Census hovers between 43% and 48% of volunteers being women.

Depends on area.

"In many cultures, boys stay with the women until a certain age, at which point there is a ritual and a formal transition whereby the the then boys belong with the men."
That ritual wasn't always particularly healthy.

"In a society that recognises that boys of a certain age belong with the men, there will be no stigma to running a boys club, at least for older boys."
Hmmm.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy9lnpxjnnqo

This sort of thing doesn't seem to happen in mixed sex groups.
I've never heard of girls wanking on a biscuit let's say.

Yeah, anecdotally I was under the impression the nonce thing was a real problem for Scout numbers once it all started coming out. I've heard men of that generation say their parents didn't want them in it as kids due to that.

What is girl orientated?
My dc (boys and girl) went to scouts and did a massive range of activities that changed every week. I don't think what you mean by girl activities. But didn't seem to be any that were only focused for girls.

No I don’t think so. The scouts offers an environment where males co operate with females on an equal level. It doesn’t have the expectation that sexes will conform to strict ideas of feminity or masculinity. It’s the opposite of a space where toxic masculinity would develop.

I’d hate to have to put my DD in guides. Apart from the trans nonsense, it’s always been very “safe” and crafty and lacking in adventure by comparison. I found it a bit girly, bitchy and boring as a child and begged my mum to give it up. I was happy for there to be girls in my son’s beaver pack - they are all outdoorsy kids and there are enough boys to gravitate to for friendships if you’re more a boys boy.

Most of the kids were girls, and it was run by women. Activities I saw included walking football (with no goals to aim for - literally and figuratively), leaf-pressing, knitting, baking.
Obviously I'm not saying these things are only for girls, but there was little room for just being boisterous (pun very much intended).

I think boys learn positive masculinity from positive male role models in their close family - not necessarily fathers but male relatives.

I think it’s more difficult to do in big groups like the Scouts - and often when you have loads of boys all together they end up winding each other up to behave badly.

Boys need to learn some things 121 I think.

This may have been your experience but at the National level numbers we’re decreasing to an untenable level. There was a vote amongst all members and the majority opted to save the organisation by admitting girls. So your point about Scouts letting boys down is incorrect but I think there is an interesting conversation to be had about the need of strong, positive male roll models for you boys.

There are plenty of boy only spaces in sports and in independent schools. We know they can be heavily toxic for boys, especially those who don’t conform to traditional male stereotypes. Boys often do better in mixed sex environments, while girls do better in girl only ones.

Fwiw, my ds was in Beavers and Cubs with all female leaders and loved it. There was a leadership change and now all leaders are male. He hates it and wants to quit. It’s become very competitive, games, winning, athleticism, where previously there was a lot of focus on collaboration and cooperation and everyone helping each other. The feel of the group has totally changed with men in charge.

That said, both of my dc have done Scouting and competitive sports and that’s not where they have access to same sex role models. They get that from Dh and I and their family. Parents can’t just be throwing their hands up and expecting scouting leaders to save their sons from the manosphere. They need to get their heads out of their bums and parent their sons. 🙄

YANBU - women really don't like men having their own spaces though!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg5qd9l3094o

I’m a female beaver scout leader. We have two girls in our colony at the moment and 12 boys. The boys have never made any comment on the girls being there, they are accepted and actually are very good at showing the boys how it’s done sometimes!!

I would imagine that "males only" spaces are, generally, far more likely to foster toxic masculinity than prevent it.

Do you have any actual reason to think otherwise, OP?